I have a question about the stick compounds for stropping.

[PC87]

Its possible that your not hitting the apex, have you tried the sharpie trick on the Elmax blade? I've actually found Elmax to be easier to sharpen then s30v and it also seems to take a finer edge. I would try spending some more time on the stones and make sure your actually hitting the apex before you do anymore stropping. Dont get discouraged I'm sure you'll get it sharp. Good luck

Thanks, and yes I did the sharpie and I am hitting the apex. I did use the diamond spray on a strop and it is better but still not where the other steels are. I am starting to think the blade thickness behind the edge may be the culprit. It seems the primary bevel is at 30 deg or so and I did put a micro bevel on it at 40 deg. these angles are inclusive. The elmax knife has thicker blade stock than the s30v knives and I am thinking this is the reason it just doesn't glide through phone book paper. I can't whittle hair with it either.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Thanks, and yes I did the sharpie and I am hitting the apex. I did use the diamond spray on a strop and it is better but still not where the other steels are. I am starting to think the blade thickness behind the edge may be the culprit. It seems the primary bevel is at 30 deg or so and I did put a micro bevel on it at 40 deg. these angles are inclusive. The elmax knife has thicker blade stock than the s30v knives and I am thinking this is the reason it just doesn't glide through phone book paper. I can't whittle hair with it either.

Use the phonebook paper-cutting as your primary guide, for making sure you've apexed the edge. If an edge is truly apexed and crisp, the cutting performance always proves it. I've always found the Sharpie ink test to be limited, in proving if you're really 'there' or not. By the naked eye, and even if under magnification, it's sometimes easy to assume you've apexed, and still be just short of the apex. More often than not, when I've relied on the Sharpie alone, I've later found a (literally) hair-thin stripe of ink left at the edge, when taking a very close and brightly-lit look at the apex with a magnifier (10X or better).

Don't stop work on the stones until you see a marked improvement in cutting the paper. Assuming a complete apex along the full length of the cutting edge, there will still likely be some burrs which will snag a little in the paper, but the cutting should dramatically improve otherwise. When you see that jump in cutting performance, that's the time to then go to the strop (though at least some of the burrs could still be cleaned up with lighter strokes on the stones).

I'd suggest going to full apex and verifying cutting performance (with the paper) at 30° inclusive. Most any steel should cut the paper easily at that angle. Then, and only then, add the microbevel if you still think it needs it.


David

 

[PC87]

Thanks.

What is the best way to take it back to 30 inclusive and get rid of the micro bevel?

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Thanks.

What is the best way to take it back to 30 inclusive and get rid of the micro bevel?

I'd just use the stones to grind flush with the primary bevels (currently at 30°) until it's apexed again. If you don't want to do this, I understand. I suggested this because it's easier to verify sharpness by paper-slicing, shaving/hair-whittling/etc. at the more acute angle. At this stage, when you aren't sure what the steel itself is capable of doing, starting at a more acute angle is preferable to avoid additional handicaps like wider geometry. At 40° inclusive and wider, the apex really needs to be near-perfect in order to produce a consistent shaving edge. Not that it's not possible, but it's much more of a challenge at wider edge angles. Once you can verify the steel's abilities at narrower geometry, it becomes much more apparent, if you see a degradation in cutting performance by adding a wider microbevel, as to where the problem lies (with the wider geometry and/or an imperfect apex on the microbevel).

An additional obstacle with adding a microbevel, is that it's much easier to ruin it with just one errant, off-angle pass. And potentially worse, if the angle varies even slightly over several passes. The bevel itself is very small (by definition), so it doesn't take much at all to round it off. Combined with the wider 40° geometry, and it'll stop cutting in a hurry.


David

 

[PC87]

I'd just use the stones to grind flush with the primary bevels (currently at 30°) until it's apexed again. If you don't want to do this, I understand. I suggested this because it's easier to verify sharpness by paper-slicing, shaving/hair-whittling/etc. at the more acute angle. At this stage, when you aren't sure what the steel itself is capable of doing, starting at a more acute angle is preferable to avoid additional handicaps like wider geometry. At 40° inclusive and wider, the apex really needs to be near-perfect in order to produce a consistent shaving edge. Not that it's not possible, but it's much more of a challenge at wider edge angles. Once you can verify the steel's abilities at narrower geometry, it becomes much more apparent, if you see a degradation in cutting performance by adding a wider microbevel, as to where the problem lies (with the wider geometry and/or an imperfect apex on the microbevel).

An additional obstacle with adding a microbevel, is that it's much easier to ruin it with just one errant, off-angle pass. And potentially worse, if the angle varies even slightly over several passes. The bevel itself is very small (by definition), so it doesn't take much at all to round it off. Combined with the wider 40° geometry, and it'll stop cutting in a hurry.


David

WOW, I actually understand all of that. Thank you very much. I will need to get either some SM diamond rods or I was thinking of getting some SiC stones to rubber band on the SM rods at 30 deg. to cut the time down to go back to 30 inclusive. I just dont have the time to use those medium stones to get it back down, it just takes to long on this elmax knife I have.

Would you recommend either of the two solutions I mentioned, or go another way?

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

WOW, I actually understand all of that. Thank you very much. I will need to get either some SM diamond rods or I was thinking of getting some SiC stones to rubber band on the SM rods at 30 deg. to cut the time down to go back to 30 inclusive. I just dont have the time to use those medium stones to get it back down, it just takes to long on this elmax knife I have.

Would you recommend either of the two solutions I mentioned, or go another way?

Don't blame you at all for not wanting to do this again with the stock medium rods. I wouldn't want to either.

With the Elmax blade's high vanadium carbide content, I'd choose diamond over anything else for re-grinding bevels. Even SiC can be somewhat of a gamble in grinding the vanadium carbides, and I'd not want to potentially handicap myself with that additional variable.


David

 

[PC87]

Don't blame you at all for not wanting to do this again with the stock medium rods. I wouldn't want to either.

With the Elmax blade's high vanadium carbide content, I'd choose diamond over anything else for re-grinding bevels. Even SiC can be somewhat of a gamble in grinding the vanadium carbides, and I'd not want to potentially handicap myself with that additional variable.


David

Thank you very much, SM diamond rods will be ordered Monday.

Your explanation of micro bevels as me wandering why would anyone waste the time, unless they are really good at free handing, at putting micro bevel on knives if they are that "finicky" for lack of a better word.

It appears that the SM diamonds are around 400. I assume it is fine to go straight to the SM medium rods after the diamonds, which I think I read are around 800, then on through the fines and UF's then strop?

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Thank you very much, SM diamond rods will be ordered Monday.

Your explanation of micro bevels as me wandering why would anyone waste the time, unless they are really good at free handing, at putting micro bevel on knives if they are that "finicky" for lack of a better word.

It appears that the SM diamonds are around 400. I assume it is fine to go straight to the SM medium rods after the diamonds, which I think I read are around 800, then on through the fines and UF's then strop?

A microbevel can be a quick way to make the cutting edge more durable, IF you find it rolls or chips too easily at a more acute angle. I'd think the Elmax blade should be plenty durable at 30°, unless it was used really hard. Softer & less wear-resistant steels, and maybe very, very hard (brittle) steels sometimes won't hold up too well at thinner edge angles. If such a blade were thinned too much, and the edge was wearing, rolling or being damaged too easily, a microbevel done in just a few very careful and light passes could be a quick way to beef it up. The main idea is to add durability without having to completely re-bevel a too-thin edge. It can also be a bonus, in that the thinner grind behind the microbevel will still improve slicing in thicker/heavier material, while the wider microbevel helps to retain the sharpness at the edge.

The sequence you've specified is the right one, for grinding the new bevels and refining (diamond > medium > fine > uf > stropping).


David

 

[PC87]

A microbevel can be a quick way to make the cutting edge more durable, IF you find it rolls or chips too easily at a more acute angle. I'd think the Elmax blade should be plenty durable at 30°, unless it was used really hard. Softer & less wear-resistant steels, and maybe very, very hard (brittle) steels sometimes won't hold up too well at thinner edge angles. If such a blade were thinned too much, and the edge was wearing, rolling or being damaged too easily, a microbevel done in just a few very careful and light passes could be a quick way to beef it up. The main idea is to add durability without having to completely re-bevel a too-thin edge. It can also be a bonus, in that the thinner grind behind the microbevel will still improve slicing in thicker/heavier material, while the wider microbevel helps to retain the sharpness at the edge.


t
The sequence you've specified is the right one, for grinding the new bevels and refining (diamond > medium > fine > uf > stropping).


David

thank you very much for the help.