I know this has been posted before....Mokume

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Doc Hollywood

Joined
Jan 24, 2003
Messages
341
I am going to start this whole ball of wax again.

Is anyone here making mokume?

Can you make jelly roll the same as damascus?

Can you do all of the patterns similar to damascus?

Can the billet be hammered into a square shape and cut like for a mosaic?

How much trouble does brass, nickel silver, and copper cause as a whole?

How hard is gold and fine silver sheet to get?

These and many more questions can be yours if you choose to read. This post will self destruct in 10 seconds.....

Doc
 
Is anyone here making mokume?

Yes


Can you make jelly roll the same as damascus?

I don't think so.


Can you do all of the patterns similar to damascus?

Yes, most of them


Can the billet be hammered into a square shape and cut like for a mosaic?

Depending on the metals involved, mokume can be forged.


How much trouble does brass, nickel silver, and copper cause as a whole?

Doesn't cause me much trouble. What do you mean by trouble?


How hard is gold and fine silver sheet to get?

Easy to get, just hard on the pocket book. Check out www.ccsilver.com


The most difficult part about mokume is doing the more advanced patterns. If you are using copper and nickel silver and want to do a chevron twist or persian twist pattern, there are going to be places where copper and copper or NS and NS have to fuse to each other. This is not a good thing since the whole diffusion bonding thing is based on different alloys.

I use the forge fired method which makes bonding the same metals almost impossible. If you are using the kiln fired method, you may have success since it is lower temps and alot of time (10 hours).

Ask anything you want, I don't have many secrets.

Here is some that I made for the collaboration knife:

collaboration-mokume-2.jpg
 
Loredo7mm IS the man. He is our residing mokume master in my opinion. I have seen his work up close and in fact have worked some of his mokume. You will do well to speak with him about it.

RL
 
My $.02 on mokume: don't make it with silver and brass touching eachother. Unlike this message, they actually WILL self destruct. When the brass and silver fuse, they will turn to solder the next time you heat it. If you never plan on heating it, though, then go for it.

- Chris
 
Thanks Laredo

That answered alot. I like the looks of the piece in the pics too.

My experience with Mokume is fairly limited, but I have made the basic laminate stack. I am looking forward to playing with it some and seeing what can be made.

You say no to jelly roll. If you placed a sheet of one of the odd metals in the center of the roll (rolled within) would jelly roll be possible? This would get a dissimilar metal to the roll so the other has something to stick ot besides itself.

Doc
 
I suggest you wear leather boots when making mokume with brass. The first time I tried a brass copper mixture my temp was off a bit. I overheated the billet, the brass went molten and narrowly missed my foot when I removed the billet from the forge. I was wearing running shoes :eek: . Brass also does not twist well in my experiance.
 
With silver thyings are different. I just recently tried to do some sterling silver and nickel silver mokume and had mixed results. Doing a straight laminate is easy and everything will start fuse at around 1432 °F which is the eutectic temperature.

Above that temp the sterling is semi-solid or "solidus" which makes twisting a real pain in the butt. Trust me I have ruined about $200 worth of sterling trying to twist a billet too hot and getting delamination. It just doesn't work well. I think the only way to work it would be at a dull red heat around 1200 °F, but then it is more difficult to twist in larger billet sizes.

But there are differences between fine silver (pure), sterling silver (7.5% copper) and nickel silver (copper, nickel, and tin). Silver/copper eutectoid temp is 1432 °F, so if you use fine silver with another alloy that does not contain copper, you can work at higher temps. Even with fine silver next to a copper bearing alloy will creat the eutectic alloy and start to get mushy at 1432 °F.

Most of my experience has been with copper and nickel silver. They fuse at about 1880 °F (according to my pyro) which is a pretty high temp allowing to to be able forge and twist after the initial diffusion bond as long as you keep the temp below the fusion temperature. I have never had much problem with twisting or forging Cu/NS mokume. Just watch out or the edges cracking when you twist.

I have just recently started trying new alloys like sterling silver with NS and making titanium mokume. Unfortunately all that is pretty expensive just for raw materials and they all have the eutectoid thing going on which makes forging and twisting a PITA.

As far as the jelly roll pattern, you will just need to keep pressure on all sides of the roll to get good fusion to make it work. Since the bond works from clean surfaces, under pressure, at high heat, without oxygen, you can't just heat it up and smack it with a hammer like we do when making damscus steel. Everything needs to be set inplace and ready once you put it into the forge to fuse.

I would highly suggest the Steve Midgett book if you don't have it already. You can get it from his website www.mokume.com He discusses all firing techniques and has an alloy compatability chart which is pretty useful.

Other than that get your metals clean and don't over heat and all should be good.
 
If you have the desire to try this,here is a way you might be able to make a jelly roll mokume.Take a 2" thick steel plate 2X3 inches.Drill a 1" hole through the center.drill 3/8" bolt holes on both sides of the big hole,then saw the thing in half.You have made a round torque frame.Bolt it back together and run the 1" drill back through the hole.Get two regular torque plates big enough for the frame you just made to fit in.Cut a piece of 7/8 stainless round stock 1.25 inch long,this will be the torque ram.
Make the roll by placing the ends of 1.5" wide sheets of 24 gague brass/copper/nickel silver (prepared for firing) in a slot on a 3/16" NS rod. The rod should be in a very slow turning VSR drill.Slowly wind up the roll while keeping it tight with a cotton gloved left hand.When it is wound up to a 1" roll wrap with a piece of binding wire.Check to see that it will just fit in the 1" hole,If too big,trim a bit off.Carefully ocher the outside,taking care to not get it in the side joint or on the ends.Slide it in the frame up to the wire,snip the tie wire,ocher the side again if needed,and slide in till flush with the top.Cut off the excess center rod.Place this on the hydraulic press with the ram in the open end and press the roll as hard as possible.It should compress to make a firm slug.There should be at least 3/8" of ram sticking out,if needed cut a slightly longer ram.Put a 1" circle of HT foil in the hole,put the ram back in, and place the frame, with the ram in the hole,in the torque plates,with another piece of HT foil under the frame block.Bolt down tight,bag up,and fire in a kiln for 10 hours at the appropriate temp for the metals used.When cooled to the black heat slip it out of the plates ,and press it with the hydraulic press to make it good and solid .Push out of the frame (unbolt it if necessary) and forge down as needed.
I can't say this will work,but I think it has potential.
 
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