I Spy

Random · Apr 25, 2001

I wonder why they don't "up" the pins on the existing jag models? Do a little something to the tang pin receptacles on the handles and you have a medium priced better than average quality Bali.

Oh, gotta have a latch.

------------------
Doubt is an uncomfortable condition,
but certainty is a ridiculous one.

Samurai6 · Apr 25, 2001

This thread has been a little hard to follow, but the bottom line has been that a durable and attractive balisong in the $70 range would be a good thing, and so are excellent balisongs with premium materials in the $200 range. Who can argue with that?

What D. Stu started out saying though was that he wouldn't buy a quality knife in the price range of those pictured in the first post of this thread, even if he could afford it. That's what didn't make any sense to me.

Now what's up with the 40 series being the best? I like the 40s just fine, but for another $50 bucks you get the 42 with much smoother action and what should prove to be a more durable handle material, and to me that is a bargain. As I understood the situation, Benchmade quit making the 40 series because the machines used were worn out. The 42 was an upgrade of the 40 concept. If they were going to replace the mills anyway, why not make the knife better. And in my opinion, there is no reason to prefer the 40 to the 42 since with inflation and what it would have cost to replace the machining for the 40, the 40 would probably cost closer to $100 these days if they had kept the line in production.

Don Rearic · Apr 25, 2001

Originally posted by Steve Harvey:
Now what's up with the 40 series being the best?

Because it was! Hahahha, but, people can have personal preferences about the 40s vs. 42 and I understand that.

HONESTLY, my 42 is growing on me like a fungus.

Originally posted by Steve Harvey:
As I understood the situation, Benchmade quit making the 40 series because the machines used were worn out. The 42 was an upgrade of the 40 concept. If they were going to replace the mills anyway, why not make the knife better.

I know someone at BM and regardless of what people think, that was simply not the case. That line was disposed of for various reasons other than the reasons given. People can dispute that all they want.

And that does not matter in the slightest either, they could make a steel handled BaliSong right now the same dimensions as the 42 Steve, and they could sell them all day long for $60.00

I hope the MT BaliSong happens and the price quoted as MSRP is correct.

I hope that the BaliSongs in this thread become a reality in that price range and I hope they are of excellent quality.

And I hope that BM turns back the clock and returns to a steel handled BaliSong as well as keeping the Ti-version.

I posted in the BaliSong thread today on the BM Forum, the first time in a very long time. I'm a "Junior Member" again with two stankin' posts! Hahahahaha, the pain of erasure of past posts with their Forum being down for awhile, etc.

And, I hope they take all of the advice given in that thread, because if they do (I don't expect they will, but what the hell...) then we should see a Stiletto or Spearpoint, a Kriss (never EVER going to happen but it is nice to dream) and possibly Imada High Hollows and one of the three Custom Bowie styles that used to be offered.

Wouldn't that be great?

I think so.

------------------
"You are no more armed because you are wearing a pistol than you are a musician because you own a guitar." ~Jeff Cooper
And the same goes for a knife...
And, I'm a Usual Suspect.

Offer me solutions, offer me alternatives and I decline. It's the end of the world as we know it...and I feel fine. ~Stipe

Samurai6 · Apr 25, 2001

Originally posted by Don Rearic:
I know someone at BM and regardless of what people think, that was simply not the case. That line was disposed of for various reasons other than the reasons given. People can dispute that all they want.

Any idea what the real reasons might have been? Trying to target the bali sales at yuppies and away from troubled youth?

Originally posted by Don Rearic:
And that does not matter in the slightest either, they could make a steel handled BaliSong right now the same dimensions as the 42 Steve, and they could sell them all day long for $60.00

I have to admit, if I could get a stainless handle 42 for $60, I would probably have a drawer full of them.

Originally posted by Don Rearic:
And, I hope they take all of the advice given in that thread, because if they do (I don't expect they will, but what the hell...) then we should see a Stiletto or Spearpoint, a Kriss (never EVER going to happen but it is nice to dream) and possibly Imada High Hollows and one of the three Custom Bowie styles that used to be offered.

Wouldn't that be great?

Oh yeah. Considering that all they have to do is grind the blades to fit in the 42 handle, there aught to be a choice of at least four of five different blade patterns.

Don Rearic · Apr 25, 2001

Quite frankly, I don't know why they did certain things. I know that even if their claim that the machines were worn out, which I have on good authority was not the case, they could make one now.

I have seen Sal Glesser of Spyderco say that the Civilian is not restricted but the Matriarch was. He now let's Dealers use discretion instead of restricting the Matriarch. But he did do it for quite some time.

SO, maybe you are correct.

I make the prediction that when BM releases another blade style, it will be the same-old, same-old Steve.

See, they are stroking the Forumites there. Ask for input, but you know what the result is going to be?

The three production blades in the past. Weehawk [GREAT!] Utility [COOL!] Tanto [SICK AND TIRED OF THEM IN A BALI-SONG].

Now, they are asking for input, for what?

The 40 Series WILL BE mirrored in the 42 if they are not feeling the heat of Competition. It's as simple as that. That means the same old three blade styles and the Weehawk is cool, but why go back and make the other two-thirds of the 40 Series?

The majority of those posts in the Bali-Song Thread at the Benchmade Forum are echoing what everyone wants. Spearpoints, Stilettos, Kriss, Imada HH, and Bowies.

They can prove me wrong, I will be glad to be wrong about this post. I don't think I will be proven wrong. I think they are just creating the BUZZ just like they did with the interchangeable blades in the beginning and have now backtracked on.

With all due respect to Chuck and the information he has obtained, it is simply unrealistic to assume that a company that will not allow a Customer to swap scales on one of their knives was ever going to allow a Customer to swap blades in a knife.

Chuck points out that they allowed you to replace a pocket clip, be still my beating heart. B.F.D.

It was all BUZZ creation surrounding the 42.

Now, if BM is smart, they will look at that forum they paid money for, and they will use it as a Marketing Tool instead of whatever it is they consider it to be currently.

As a Marketing Tool, they will see the same three references, over and over and over again...double edged, Imada HH, Bowies.

I'm chuckling about the whole Microtech BaliSong Affair quite honestly, I dropped the bomb and others went over and incited a firestorm on MT's Forum at KFC [GIGGLE] and I loved the idea of it.

I was also told in the MT Forum that "Tony [Marfione] doesn't do Forums." When I asked that he take a look in THIS forum to see the demand for these knives.

Turber changed that, or perhaps someone did put a bug in Marfione's ear. Don't know, don't care. Just hope it becomes a reality.

The point is, if I owned a small, specialty knife company like Microtech and I saw this Forum, I would be sitting at the Computer and starting to design things that would appeal to that market. That's using a Forum as a Marketing Tool.

For some reason, Benchmade does not see this, realize it or care about it. If they do, they will not be releasing a Tanto or a Utility blade next. The 42 is a Weehawk, the 42 Series will not be a re-run of the 40 Series, IF, they are really seeking input. Because the 42 is a Weehawk, they have already duplicated one-third of the blades in the 40 Series.

Know what I mean?

------------------
"You are no more armed because you are wearing a pistol than you are a musician because you own a guitar." ~Jeff Cooper
And the same goes for a knife...
And, I'm a Usual Suspect.

Offer me solutions, offer me alternatives and I decline. It's the end of the world as we know it...and I feel fine. ~Stipe

Sabo · Apr 25, 2001

Hmmmm! Seems that I surely missed out on this one!

Hey Chuck...How was the demo time that you retained during the show? Please enlighten us.

BTW...

...pics of the "next balisong" are inconclusive! Please elaborate.

Best regards,

------------------

Sabo 29
"Catch you on the flip side"!

BaliLover · Apr 25, 2001

I am not a very religious man but I find myself praying (well, more like pleading) for a few things. One is that BM will bring out a Bowie bladestyle on the 42, two is that I win the MT Naming Contest, and three is that America will return to the way it used to be.

Okay, maybe I'm not religious at all, but it seemed like a good way to start my post.

Look at all the available bladestyles on various folders and fixed blades, now what I want is the same availability in balis. My wallet doesn't want the same thing unfortunately.

As for $150 being too much, figure that Doc Martens boots cost in the $100-$200 range and seem to last forever, The average pair of sneakers costs $75-80 and only lasts about a year, a video game is around $50 and gets old in less than a year. You can also buy the cheap soda for about half price. No matter how much you save, you are still better off saving up more money and buying the best. You can always get some of your money back if you decide to sell the best, you're pretty much stuck with the cheap stuff.

Want a quality bali for around $75, look for some of the Balis's from the 80's such a taylor and parker. I have a taylor that I beat the snot out of and it's still my favorite. I saw a forumite buy the exact same bali for $35. I would have gladly paid twice that for it.

You can also pick up a FHM for $60 from Sniperboy and they are fairly well constructed.

Think of it this way. Lets say it takes you 2 months to save up $90 but you have $30 right now. You buy a Jag or a bear and in 2 months the handle breaks. You are now out the $30 you already had saved up and you have no way to get the bali repaired. If you had held out for 2 months and saved, you could buy a 42 that will last forever. I'd rather wait and buy the best, than continually buy the cheaper brand that is known for breaking. Thats like saying "I know a new VW, Honda, Toyota, Ford, ETC costs $15000 but I can get a Yugo for so much less and it serves the same purpose. Heck, I don't even care if someone scratches my Yugo."

With that said, anyone looking to buy a Yugo?

Disco Stu · Apr 26, 2001

OK, to address Mr. Harvey I was a little hot when I wrote that. If I had that kind of money, I would probably buy any and all balis I could find.

But to Balilover I say that I am not in favor of buying cheap things instead of buying the best. For instance, I wear Red Wing shoes on my feet day in and day out. And I believe they top even Doc Martens. And I still believe that $150 is almost too much for a bali. Considering the 42, do you think it will last noticably longer just because it has Ti handles? I doubt it. And I also don't favor the weight. As pointed out if they put SS handles on the 42 they could sell them all day long for $60 and I would enjoy them more since they would be heavier. And concerning the 'Taylor and Parker' comment, gee, if they just made those today they would be easy to find and cost less than $75. Those old Taylors and Parkers are almost exactly what I'm shooting for but I want them to be available to everyone in the same mindset/financial situation as myself. It's no longer a question of quality coming only with large amounts of money since we have proved here that what is considered by many to be the best bali ever was sold only a few years ago for about $70. And don't give me that inflation crap either, a $70 knife a few years back would be a $70 knife today. So your analogy is flawed. It would be more like saying, "I know a BMW, Mercedes, Porche...etc. costs me over $50,000, but I can get a Ford for $20,000 and it will serve me just as well."

And let I remind everyone that it was just an analogy so let's not waste more space and time arguing about our favorite brands of car.

[This message has been edited by Disco Stu (edited 04-26-2001).]

BaliLover · Apr 26, 2001

You idea that if the handles weren't made of Ti the bali would be cheaper is flawed. Ti, is not that much more expensive than SS, what you really pay for is the machines that make the bali, and the people that assemble them. If Ti was some super expensive metal, you wouldn't be able to buy a Ti crowbar for $30, imagine all the handles for bali's you could make from that. Now, if the handles were made from gold or silver, or with some fancy insert, then making a bali without all the fancy extra's would save the money.

I also recall that in the mid 90's I was seeing BM bali's going for $100 at gun shows all the time. Even at $120, the 42's price is about where it should be, not just because of inflation, but because of the rise in the cost of living. Now everything is more expensive from food to gas. BM's employees must drive to work and they must also eat, so BM has to pay them a bit more to compensate. In the past 5 years my salary has doubled.

I know what you're going at, just pour molten SS into the handle mold instead of the Ti, but you still have to have someone finish the handles (deburr, etc) polish them, install the latch, blade, press in the pins, check it for QC, etc. All of the work is still there, you just save a little on Ti. I know BM"s new equipment is very expensive and that's pretty much what you're paying for too. I'm guessing that with the amount of Ti that BM buys, we maybe have $10 worth in the handles and latch of our 42's. I'd rather pay an extra $10 for Ti since I live around salt water.

Don Rearic · Apr 26, 2001

Originally posted by BaliLover:
You idea that if the handles weren't made of Ti the bali would be cheaper is flawed. Ti, is not that much more expensive than SS, what you really pay for is the machines that make the bali, and the people that assemble them. If Ti was some super expensive metal, you wouldn't be able to buy a Ti crowbar for $30, imagine all the handles for bali's you could make from that.

You are mistaken. James Piorek informs me that finishing simple Titanium Sticks, and drilling them, etc., is very expensive as the material eats belts and other equipment used to polish and finish them like a tornado eats trailer parks.

If there was a steel one, it would be cheaper, should be cheaper. Plus, the pins do not have to be "hidden," finished to the point you cannot see them, etc.

BM could make a steel handled Bali, call it the 52 and go about their business, sell it for $60 to $70 and be happy.

------------------
"You are no more armed because you are wearing a pistol than you are a musician because you own a guitar." ~Jeff Cooper
And the same goes for a knife...
And, I'm a Usual Suspect.

Offer me solutions, offer me alternatives and I decline. It's the end of the world as we know it...and I feel fine. ~Stipe

epigram79 · Apr 26, 2001

Just thought I'd add that Ti is quite a bit more expensive than 303 stainless (what the old ones had). Now, your $30 Ti crowbar... Do you think whoever made it payed as much attention when they were alloying the metal as BM's suppliers do. I really don't think so. You are correct in saying that there's about $10 worth of Ti in the handles. But there is a lot of work that goes in those handles. And as stated before, Ti wears equipment and tools MUCH faster than 303 stainless. That's why they cast it in the first place! 303 is known for being both corrosion resistant and highly machinable. And from experience I'll tell you that it is. And if you say there is about $10 of Ti in the 42, then to compare, the 45 had (probably)about $7 of 303 stainless in it. I would imagine that BM used CNC machines, so that makes things pretty easy. But they still have to finish the handles (stuff comes out pretty rough looking when first milled), replace cutters, tune the machines, etc.
Ok, I don't remember where I was going with this so I'll see what you all have to say.

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Steve
(Third Mate for hire!)

RKnight · Apr 26, 2001

Just a note here while we're talking about machining costs.

The stainless handles on the prod 45 were cast not machined (I don't know if it was 303). Only the customs were machined out of 303. Of course if I misunderstood your meaning, please disregard.

BaliLover · Apr 26, 2001

But see, you said it yourself, the handles on are cast, you don't need to drill them. Finishing Ti isn't extremely difficult with the machinery that BM has. Do you think they would use any different equipment/machinery to make a SS handled one, I doubt it so the machinery costs are still there. While I do agree that a cheaper alternative would be nice, I doubt that BM will be the maker since Using current machines would make the costs almost equal to that of the 42, and they wouldn't buy new machines or tooling to make a cheaper bali.

Now, if you can go to Japan, it's my understanding that Taylors and such still exists in large numbers, there is just no way to import large numbers of them to the US.

epigram79 · Apr 26, 2001

RKnight, I stand corrected. I was under the impression that they were milled. This is why I need a 45!!! So I can actually see what makes them tick. Ok... Even though they were cast, it's still cheaper to finish steel than Ti; I say that with 99% conviction. What were the production versions cast in? Perhaps 410??? I don't know what the melting points of each alloys are, but maybe if Ti is a lot higher, it may cost more for BM to purchase (or make???)the dies because they'd have to be made to higher tolerances. I really don't know. Just trying to offer ideas here.

Chuck, I know we are way off topic but many of people are learning a lot in this tread. I'm glad it was started and that it's going off on a tangent.

------------------
Steve
(Third Mate for hire!)

Gollnick · Apr 27, 2001

Keep in mind that the handles on the BM42 are cast Ti. I'm not an expert in this area, but I am told that Ti casting is more complex than steel casting (I think you have to maintain the temperatures more precisely or something). Anyway, as Ti castings go, the 42's handles are quite complex. I know that BM had difficulty finding a capable supplier at reasonable prices.

The demo at the show went very well. It was well attended. I was very well assisted by a young man who stood on the other side of the demo last year and decided to buy a charming cheapie and try it out. Today, he's wonderful. I'll post some pictures this weekend.

------------------
Chuck
Balisongs -- because it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing!
http://www.balisongcollector.com

RKnight · Apr 27, 2001

I do not know what stainless was used for the cast prod 45's. But, it may very well be something far down the ladder than 410.

I'm not a metalargerist (or a good speller), but I suspect that Chuck is right about cast Ti being a totally different procedure than casting some (presumably) inexpensive form of stainless. For all I know, it could have been 420 series or some other easily cast material which could be easily chrome plated, which they were.

[This message has been edited by RKnight (edited 04-27-2001).]

Chris "Anagarika" · May 1, 2001

And that does not matter in the slightest either, they could make a steel handled BaliSong right now the same dimensions as the 42 Steve, and they could sell them all day long for $60.00

I would love to see a quality bali BM45 at $60!

The majority of those posts in the Bali-Song Thread at the Benchmade Forum are echoing what everyone wants. Spearpoints, Stilettos, Kriss, Imada HH, and Bowies.

I have to add one more: Utility, old as it seems, but who else currently makes good utility blade in best folding knife(BALISONG!!!) at 60$?
Next on my list are Imada HH and bowies, then spearpoints (full double edge)

One more point: if today they can produce and sell BM45 at 60$, why it was priced at around 80$ (see the price list of PC43, predecessor of BM45 in Advanced Balisong Manual)? Handles were cast SS. My conclusion is: NO REAL COMPETITION .. At that time, other brands (Taylor, etc.)that comes from Japan were looked as 'less' quality because they weren't 'made in USA'.

Thus I still believe, we need competition!
And I find this thread to be one of the best learning I have.

2Sharp · May 1, 2001

Originally posted by RKnight:
For all I know, it could have been 420 series or some other easily cast material which could be easily chrome plated, which they were.

I'm not sure that i did understand you here, i'm pretty sure that the 45's aren't chromeplated, i've beadblasted one and it didn't look like it was plated like the 239/259.

And concerning cast/milled, wouldn't it be that all metal has been cast? you don't directly find steel bars that are ready to mill when excavating for the metals!

Interesting discussion!

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Be well!/Jonas aka 2Sharp

"Who want fulfillment? -denial lasts forever"
Total Emerson knives freak!!! Usual Suspect wanna-be...

The coolest bar in the world: http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Camp/8373/index.html
My knives!

Gollnick · May 1, 2001

The 60-, 30-, and 40-series were not chrome plated. I do know what the alloy is. It's around here somewhere. But, it's not a blade steel at all. As I recall, it has a four digit number. It's quite correct for the handles to be made of a different alloy than the blade since the two parts have different needs.

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Chuck
Balisongs -- because it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing!
http://www.balisongcollector.com

Nate · May 2, 2001

according to balisongfans, the 45s handles are " 17-4 PH Investment Cast Stainless Steel" Whatever THAT means

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