I STILL can't sharpen...(burr problem)

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GarageBoy

Joined
May 23, 2003
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Ok..this is like my 5th or 6th thread about sharpening. Why? I can't an OPINEL sharp!
When I did the one stroke each side method, I got a decent edge..nothing spectacular.
Well, I decided to redo the edge on my opinel from scratch.
1st: DMT coarse- kept sharpening one side til a burr formed, only problem it, the burr has chips in it (my opinel is VERY thin edged) Ok, sharpen the other, VERY coarse edge now...
Moved on to Spyderco Medium, again, one side at a time.. Burr is now on the other side, only problem is, the burr is not one long burr any more, but it's in sections. Ok, I flip it around and finish off with the other side.. Burr flipped back, still in sections and I cannont develop a fresh one..
I just gave up and did one side at a time on Spyderco Fine and now it cuts..ok (still not as sharp as my OEM Spyderco Calypso Jr)
 
Generally the bur will form regardless of what stone or wheel is used to make the new edge. Then you use a hard arkansas or its equal to remove the wire edge and then strop it a few times to take to an even finer edge. Sounds like you are one of those that will never be happy with the edge and the biggest lesson will be knowing when to leave well enough alone. Just a guess but probably accurate.

Try the x-fine diamond. You shouldn't need course if you already had a good bevel in the first place. Get it to the wire edge as you did before then try some polish compound on a piece of leather if you don't have hard or really fine stone to use. Stropping instructions are everywhere on the web make the search engine your friend and read those first.

Don't worry much about which side the wire edge is leaning to after the first step. This varies depending on which side you finished on. Just keep going to the rest of the steps to remove that wire or false edge. When you cannot see the edge reflecting back at you or when it takes off a thin slice of fingernail with ease you are there.

HTH.
Steve
 
Before, when I took one stroke each side, I never got the edge thin enough to burr. Now that I have, it's killing me. Spyderco Fine is as fine as hard ark, IIRC. I'll keep going with light strokes, but I think the edge is worse than last time
 
my Opinel was actually one of the most difficult sharpenings i've done on the 204, so i can relate. i put my brain on autopilot and ran 'er across the medium stones for over 1/2 hour before i ground off a decent edge on mine. then i ran across the fines for another 10 minutes or so, checking the edge occasionally until FINALLY i got her shaving.

everyone's prolly gonna jump on me for how long it took, but i can do my other knives easy-peasy, so who knows what the deal is? i can't help much, but just be patient. she'll even out soon enough. then you can put a leash on that knife, and beat 'er with a newspaper. or something.

abe m.
 
OK, I think I got it. I went a few degrees above and killed the burr. NOW it's shaving and making hair like fringes in paper!
 
Odd thing is, my MUCH thicker Browning fixed blade and my Frosts Mora was easier to get sharp
 
Let's get back to basics. The most important decision is the bevel angle. Apparently you've been dealing with one that is too acute for the blade.

If you know the hardness of the steel you can choose that easily. If you don't then you have to experiment.

Let's start by choosing 20 degrees as an angle between the bevel and center line of the blade. It is probably an appropriate angle for your knife. What we want to do is to grind away at the blade until the grinding has turned a burr to the opposite side of the blade. We need to do that on both sides. We are finished when a light swipe (light means no pressure at all beyond the weight of the knife against the abrasive) turns the burr to the opposite side of the blade on both sides of the blade. Until that is accomplished, we aren't done with the work. Once that is accomplished, you can move to a finer grit and repeat the process until you are finished. All this needs to be accomplished with a consistent angle throughout.

The fact that you have an inconsistent burr tells me you are rushing the process. If part of the burr is on one side and part on the other, you simply haven't ground enough. You need to keep at it until the burr is consistent and very easy to turn to the other side. I think you're too hung on taking advice from a bevy of people, many of whom aren't good sharpeners. Ignore all that and concentrate on the result you want and I described that above. If you can't get there, don't worry. It is just a lack of skill. You'll get there with practice. I've been sharpening knives for a long, long time. It is easy and straightforward for me. It wasn't in the beginning.

Learn to judge the condition and consistency of the burr. The burr itself isn't important. What it tells you about how you're doing is important. I don't want to write a book here. Just work with it over and over until things start to gel.

The hard part is keeping the consistent angle. An easy way to deal with that is to sharpen the knife to a more acute angle than you intend. Perhaps 18 degrees or 16 degrees instead of the 20 we want in the end. Once you have a good edge at the more acute angle, you can then grind again at the more obtuse angle. It will be easier because there is less steel to grind. So it will go faster and reduce the challenge of holding that consistent angle. This also helps get some of the steel ground away that you will have to grind away in the future so it is something like an investment.

The second hard part is finishing one step before you go to the next. Your inconsistent burr indicates that's a problem for you. If the burr is inconsistent then the grinding isn't finished. Keep at it until the burr is consistent in both directions. Then move on to the next step. If you hurry an earlier step, a later step won't produce the best results.

At this point I think I'm just rambling and not helping much. Tune in to what that burr tells you and learn to manage it. Feel it through your thumbnail and do it often. It will speak to you and report to you on your progress. Practice, practice and practice some more. One day you'll say Aha! Now I get it. Good luck to you.
 
Well...don't do that. :)

The recommendation to start by forming a burr is a crutch intended to help you see when you have removed enough material so that your sharpening bevel actually reaches the edge. This is great for inexperienced users since the commonest problem is people running out of patience before they have done enough sharpening to reach the edge. It is NOT the most efficient or cleanest way to do your sharpening. As long as you can tell what you are doing (such as by using a felt tip marker on the edge) and you can hold a reliable sharpening angle (such as by using a Sharpmaker) you do a better job by honing on alternate sides. Burrs are actually bad and cause problems. Usually these are problems that you can get around, but it is best if you minimize burr formation in the first place or remove them carefully early in your honing process.

Burrs are raggedy bits of metal attached to your edge. They are commonly uneven. They are simply an unremoved remnant of the metal you have been removing around the edge. The more metal that you have removed beyond what it takes to reach your edge midline, the longer your burr will be. The coarser the hone that you used to create your burr, the raggedier your burr will be. Using a coarse diamond hone will roughly remove a lot of material and leave you with a long, scruffy burr. This burr is likely to fold over and/or break out pieces of the edge when you try and take it off.

The length of the burr and its tenacity also increases when you have a ductile blade alloy (by ductile I mean something that tolerates bending to the point where the metal does not spring back and does not break). Carbon steel is more ductile than stainless and so this could be part of your problem if your Opinel has a carbon steel blade.

So what should you do? If I started from scratch with your tools I would work one side of the blade at a low angle on the DMT coarse, but I would apply light pressure and I would switch sides as soon as I felt the slightest burr on the blade (I would not go for a burr for the full length of the blade). Then I would switch sides and work the other side until I felt a burr on maybe 50% of the edge. I would never want to put a serious burr on 100% of the edge using that coarse hone. At this point I would want to get rid of this burr before I finished the edge using lighter hones. To do this I would used a hone of fine or medium-fine grit, preferably a sharp grit like diamond, but I would use what I had (first choice diamond, second a water stone, third an aluminum oxide bench hone, fourth choice the flats of medium ceramic rods, and lowest a silicon carbide hone--they tend to be ragged). I would lightly hone alternating sides of the edge, using edge-forwards strokes, at around 40-degrees per side (this is twice the angle of the Sharpmaker "40-degree" setting). I would hope do only do this about 5 strokes per side, but you do it the minimum number of strokes to remove the burr. With a Sharpmaker I do this by puting the medium rods in the "40-degree" holes and hold the blade parallel to the angle of the left rod while honing on the right rod and parallel to the angle of the right rod while honing on the left rod.

Now you switch to Sharpmaker rods and start following Sal's instructions. You do NOT work one side at a time. You work alternating sides. If you really want it sharp do all of your work with the rods in the "30-degree" positions. Start with the edges of the medium rods and hone with only moderate force. The edges of the rods will apply high pressure to the edge and can overstress it if you use too high a force. This might be a good time to be using a felt marker on the edge or a magnifying glass to see when your honing has fully reached the edge (you don't want to get back into that burr business). When you have reached the edge on both sides along the full length switch to using the medium rod flat sides. Don't use too much force here, but you want to make sure that the edges are smooth and even. At this point I would jump to the flats of the white rods and do about 5 strokes per side (through all of this work alternating sides, not one side at a time).

Now despite having deburred earlier and having used alternate-side honing you still have a small burr to get rid of. Go back to the flats of the medium rods. Put them in the "30-degree" holes. Holding the blade parallel to the opposite rods to double your angle, very-very lightly hone the edges about 2 or 3 strokes per side (alternating sides). You only want to remove the micro-burr not make your edge more obtuse.

Now hold the blade vertical and lightly do five strokes per side (alternately) on the flats of the medium rods. Then switch to the white rods and lightly do five strokes per side on the flats. Now to finish the edge slightly tip the spine of the blade away from the rod on which you are honing (tip left for the right rod and right for the left rod) and very-very lightly hone the edges about 2 or 3 strokes per side. The idea is to move from 15-degrees per side (the basic "30-degree" edge setting) to about 17-degrees per side. Since the edge is flexible this will yield a true 15-degree per side finished edge.

Using this technique should give you a sharper edge than your Calypso Junior.
 
Ohh, sorry to mention Mr Jeff Clark, I'm NOT using a sharpmaker. When I said Spyderco fine and medium, I'm using the full 8" Benchstones. My coarse is a little pocket stone that I attached to a text book using dobule sided tape as a base. Why do so many people say that developing a burr is crucial?
I was taught to do one stroke per side by the MelancholyMutt, he watched over my sharpening process in person and okayed it.
Thanks!
 
Ok, now it BARELY shaves (I'm running out of body hair) but it will make hair like fringe in paper
 
Blades_Two said:
I think you're too hung on taking advice from a bevy of people, many of whom aren't good sharpeners. Ignore all that and concentrate on the result you want and I described that above.
Click to expand...
yawn. let's all bow to the grand-master of sharpening, Blades_Two. Garageboy has been on this forum for some time. i have read many of his posts. he knows how to sharpen just fine. he obviously started this thread for a few extra pointers from VARIOUS forum members, MANY OF WHOM are GREAT SHARPENERS. i know, because i learned from all of them as well.

your advice may be sound, but you would do well to drop the condescending tone. sorry to sound irritated, but you've thrown out two posts today/yesterday that really seem to imply most forum members are buffoons when it comes to sharpening, and that's just not so.

abe m.
 
I started out my post by explaining why people recommend that you create a burr: "The recommendation to start by forming a burr is a crutch intended to help you see when you have removed enough material so that your sharpening bevel actually reaches the edge. This is great for inexperienced users since the commonest problem is people running out of patience before they have done enough sharpening to reach the edge." If you take your sharpening seriously you don't need this crutch.

The "start with a burr" advice assumes that you can't figure out when you have done enough rough sharpening to procede on to the next step unless you raise a burr. There are a lot of other ways to do this. For the last 45 years or so I have just done it by touch. I can feel the drag on my finger prints when the edge is thin enough. If I am reprofiling a sharp blade down to a more acute angle the touch method doesn't work (since it is already sharp enough to drag on my finger prints). I used to be able to just look at the side of a blade and see where my new bevel ended. Now I am so far-sighted that I have to use my reading glasses or a magnifying glass, but that is usually enough to see what I'm doing. In a pinch I paint the side of the edge with a permanent black marker and examine what is removed as I hone. If I am in a hurry I'll let a burr just barely get started before I use these other methods to insure I have done adequate rough sharpening.
 
sometimes, no matter how much one tries, or how good one is, you encounter a blade, even though it's of a reliable manufacturer, will sharpen to a fine edge, but will not reach that superfine razor sharp edge...
We just gotta leave it at that and be satisfied...
 
I'm gonna get a buncha Opinels and AT LEAST ONE will get sharp..
I am THAT determined right now.
Mr Jeff Clark, I've simply gone back and forth between sides until it cuts through paper without tearing, then finished up on the fine ceramic. I'm also using a 7x loupe (well it WAS a microscope eye piece) Is there a better way to tell when to switch grits? I've gone back and forth at least 40 times each to make sure the edge got thin. Thanks
 
Try stropping using 2000 sandpaper. That should get rid of the burr and get u a hair splitting edge.
 
I tried stropping on white rogue...and everytime I strop with it, me edge goes rounded. Back to Spyderco Browns and it shaves? (It didn't on the whites) what's happening?
 
OK, You got me going here. I dug into my auxiliary knife stash and dug out an Opinel #8. It wasn't as sharp as I figured it could get, but at least I had previously profiled it thin. I finished it off the way I figured is optimum for this type of steel. Now it not only shaves it also tries to remove my finger prints when I do a finger drag test.

Without watching over your shoulder it's hard to see what's causing you difficulty. It is always possible that you got a defective blade, but with carbon steel you should still be able to get it sharp.

Here are the tricks I used. First I used an 8" long medium-coarse diamond hone to thin the blade to a more acute angle. I would guess that I went to 10 or 12 degrees per side. For the 10/16"-wide blade of this Opinel this means I had the spine of the blade a little under 2/16" off the surface of the hone (a bit less than the thickness of 2 nickles). I deburred this and smoothed the finish with a 12" long extra-fine diamond hone. (You can skip a lot of grades when you use diamond hones since the fine hones cut comparatively fast. Long hones are best since you may round off your edge trying to use short hones.) I sharpened the edge at 15 degrees per side using Spyderco medium and fine ceramic hones (they happened to be in a Sharpmaker, but only the material and the grit are significant). I used modest pressure and edge-forwards strokes. If you did this free hand you would could approximate 15-degrees by keeping the spine of the blade off the hones by a shade over the thickness of two nickles. My last step on these hones was to do a few very light strokes (around 6 per side) at a slightly higher angle on the fine hone. At this stage the blade would shave.

Now since this is around a 1084 carbon steel alloy it should respond well to stropping on leather. I got out a somewhat hard old leather strop treated with green chromium oxide buffing compound. I did some light stropping with this at a very low angle (some of the time the blade was flat on the strop). This worked badly and the blade seemed less sharp. I went back and repeated my last operation on the fine ceramic stones. This seemed to leave the edge sharper than before I stropped. Now I went to my regular razor strop set. This has one canvas strop impregnated with talc and a somewhat supple leather strop with just a dash of red jeweler's rouge (ferric oxide). I stropped lightly on the canvas and lightly on the leather, and voila! The blade now shaves like crazy. So leather stropping may be part of the answer to your problem. A light micro-bevel with your fine ceramic hone might help.

Maybe when you tried to do your profiling with a short diamond hone you didn't get as low a final angle as you expected.
 
my angle is pretty low, my fingers BARELY have a decent grip on the blade. I'm going STRAIGHT from DMT Coarse to Spyderco medium. I don't have an in between, need to get one. Thanks a lot
 
GarageBoy,
You obviously got an odd situation you are up against.
If i was you , I would get out my felt tip Sharpie and carefully coat the edge
full length, both sides.

You need to see what is happening at the edge and there is no quicker or easier way than^^.

One careful sharpening stoke on each side and then an inspection should help you see exactly what is happening. Any black left shows that more metal need removing in that area. Good luck
 
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