I tell ya they're GOLD! GOLD! in them thar hills

Discussion in 'Schrade Knives Collectors Forum' started by Larry303, Mar 14, 2011.

  1. Larry303

    Larry303

    Jul 28, 2005
    G'day, I mentioned previously that I would ascertain the actual weight of the 1947 Schrade Walden 14Kt Gentleman 'Fortune' knife and the Schrade Cut Co 14Kt Gold Calendar from the late 30's.....
    Here are the results on digital scale in Troy Oz which is the gold standard of weight worldwide....<Troy grams here in Aussie>.
    I took photos on the digital scales together with some nuggets I found on the weekend Gold detecting with my Minelab GPX5000 here in the Golden Triangle in Victoria where I am currently staying....near where the largest gold nugget in the world was found "The Welcome Stranger" which weighed in at gross 3,523 Oz and was a nugget 2' long by 1' wide!.<and they used the local blacksmiths anvil to break it up to carry!>....and also the' Hand of Faith' nugget which now resides in a Las Vegas Casino entrance.......just to show that I do know gold when I see/feel it....the weight results are surprising for such small knives....<I may melt them all down>!!.
    14Kt Gold Calendar knife 1.315 Oz,....
    14Kt Gold Gentleman's Fortune knife .841Oz
    Gold Nuggets .589Oz
    So there is .474 Oz or nearly half and Ounce Troy difference between the Calendar and the Gentlemans....and when you hold the Calendar you can really feel it...submitted for the previous doubters and anyone interested......Hoo Roo
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Mar 14, 2011
  2. 6.0stroker

    6.0stroker Gold Member Gold Member

    Jan 21, 2008
    Not to DOUBT the Golden content BUT those scales show the GROSS wt :)which is the Gold covers + steel blades + steel skeleton soooo what is the Net weight????;) and do you destruct to get it:foot:

    Just sayin.!?
    Not trying to be a trouble maker!!:)
     
  3. Larry303

    Larry303

    Jul 28, 2005
    No problem in your question Ostroker whatsoever, and it is absolutely valid.. it always amazes me that for some reason we are not allowed to openly discuss this rare 14Kt knife who's frame was undoubtedly made by Schrade Cut Co as has been confirmed by Bernard Levine in paid appraisal < he confirmed blades are original to the case> and it appears Jewellers in Providance R.I in the late 30's<1937>. used to apply the scales in either sterling Silver, gold filled or solid gold as has now been researched by Codger and confirmed........I am aware of one other Calendar that was weighed and it came in at exactly 1.2 Oz on digital scales...so it would appear mine are solid gold covers and the other one is gold filled...there is a difference....of course there is the weight of the Waldemar skeleton <frame> to take into consideration...I see that another Calendar in Sterling Silver also has been located...without any markings on the front just like mine...no CPC...I will never melt the knife down for its gold content it is too valuable as a genuine Schrade Cut Co artefact from that period....wish I knew who the original owner was but isnt that similar to all knives we own..if we just knew their story....Hoo Roo
     
  4. 6.0stroker

    6.0stroker Gold Member Gold Member

    Jan 21, 2008
    :thumbup:Larry IF we could know all the stories there would be NO reason to collect other than for the monatary gain and personal reasons. ;)IMHO

    I am glad that you have the knife to add to your EXTENSIVE collection of Beauties!!

    Presevation of history is an Honorable act as is sharing with younger folks:D!
    Thanks for all you do.
     
  5. tongueriver

    tongueriver Gold Member Gold Member

    Dec 28, 2007
    For what it's worth:
    * 8 carat = 33.33%
    * 10 carat = 41.67%
    * 12 carat = 50%
    * 14 carat = 58.33%
    * 18 carat = 75%
    * 22 carat = 91.67%
    * 23 carat = 95.83%
    * 24 carat = 100%
     
  6. Larry303

    Larry303

    Jul 28, 2005
    Thanks Cal, I am well aware of the above as I sell excess nuggets I find, and they are generally considered to be 22 carat here in Victoria's Golden Triangle,amongst the most pure nuggets you can find on this planet.....
    I dont need to consider how much gold is in those knives,my point was they are indeed of 'real' gold content as Schrade stated in their 1947 Fortune advert....and the Calendar obviously contains more gold than the 'Gentlemans Fortune knife'....I have other "gold" Schrades like the Walden Key knife, which, while it looks gold is merely gold plated or whatever...the early Cut Co's like my Army Generals knife I have shown previously do indeed have gold content in addition to the stated 14Kt gold bales they sport.....I've always been interested in the inherant history/artefact value of these knives rather than the gold content even though they do have an intrinsic value as the price of gold continues to soar..approx US$1,400 an ounce at present and expected to go much,much higher as its the only thing not being printed....
    It was previously suggested/speculated on this Forum my Calendar knife was purely gold plated and I have now demonstrated the only way I can, that that speculation is totally incorrect and I make no apologies for that, Codger always stated that he believed it to be more than gold plating........there is also a Sterling Silver Cut Co Calendar which is in existance which is identical to mine with no front CPC etching and that also shoots down various other uninformed theories that were expressed about this knife <which obviously is extremely rare as are the other couple of known examples> on this forum previously..its always an ongoing search for history/provenance and I maintain an open enquiring mind for that reason.........Hoo Roo
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2011
  7. tongueriver

    tongueriver Gold Member Gold Member

    Dec 28, 2007
    I didn't mean to imply that the VALUE of the gold in your knives was of primary or even secondary importance to you, Larry; I know better. My little chart is just a little sidebar of some interest. My wife and I had matching gold wedding bands for many years. In 2005 I was out in the foothills of the Bighorns in 0 degree weather with a whitetail buck down in the snow. After I got him in the back of the truck I washed with icewater and drove home. That was the end of my wedding band. You would think that after many many knives later I would have sprung for another ring. My bad.
     
  8. Larry303

    Larry303

    Jul 28, 2005
    Cal, you can borrow my 'State of the Art' Minelab GPX5000 <Australian made> if you like and we would find that ring in a jiffy if you could find that spot in the Bighorns again...my gold detector is so sensitive will find sub gram gold nuggets at 2 feet down....the hard part is not the finding..at my age the hard part is the digging.....I wear GI knee pads while detecting so its easier to kneel on the rocks....I'll send a photo sometime of all the gear you have to wear..my wife reckons its a real giggle on me....so you want me to bring it over and we will look for your ring??.....and play knives as well..and share a beer or three....Hoo Roo.
     
  9. Larry303

    Larry303

    Jul 28, 2005
    This post may in part help the question raised on the size of the 1947 Schrade Walden 14Kt Gold Gentleman's "Fortune" knife...….it's Total Weight is exactly .841 OZ Troy......guaranteed weight...….Hoo Roo
     
  10. bladecollectorr

    bladecollectorr

    170
    Oct 7, 2017
    Thanks Larry. Merry Christmas. I already read this great thread and a bunch of others too. While knowing the exact weight is a fantastic detail it doesn't tell me how long the knife is. I'm wondering if the Fortune knife morphed into the 849 "Executive" which is 2-3/4" when closed. "Distinguished Gentleman" to "Executive" seems a natural re-name for a knife of the same pattern with different metal as a handle.

    You previously posted that Herman Williams couldn't recall this knife ever having a model number assigned to it which got me digging into what were its predecessors and successors. Since the Fortune knife was offered in December 1946, the very month the Baers bought Schrade Cut Co. I was thinking a Cut Co style model number for this knife was likely possible to decipher and would be appropriate as well.

    I'm thinking about is it as a SS8479Gold Shac. The 8479GSil Shac from the 1932 supplement to Catalog E appears to be the same knife with nickel silver handles and 1095 blades. I know we will likely never know if this number was ever used to refer to the knife. It just helps me understand and remember where it fits in Schrade history. If "SS8479Gold Shac" is a potential candidate then I can keep searching for a Cut Co reference to that number. You never know where and when a rare inked salesman sample might surface.

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  11. tiguy7

    tiguy7 Gold Member Gold Member

    Jun 25, 2008
    image.jpeg image.jpeg image.jpeg I have a couple 14kt folders. The SAK Classic is marked 14kt, the other is marked .585 on the bail. The SAK has a 14kt chain. The Executive (not my picture) has 18kt handles.
     
  12. bladecollectorr

    bladecollectorr

    170
    Oct 7, 2017
    Thanks to jxr1197 for taking the time to provide a pictorial answer to my question here: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads...e-walden-fortune-knife.1702037/#post-19456835

    The Fortune knife is 2-3/4" when closed. So...

    The 8479GSil Shac is the cataloged predecessor to the Fortune knife.

    Next predecessor would be the MOP 8476 from the 1936 supplement:
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    The first referenced successor (that I can find) would be the 848 in the 1950 pricelist. This is the same frame with Marine Pearl handles. Final listing for 848 is the 1958 catalog where it is called the "848-MP". The 848 was a "Nationally Advertised Knife".

    Final successor referenced is the 849 with stainless steel handles which first appears in the 1955 pricelist and has a final listing in the 1959 catalog where it is called "849-SS".

    A solid gold or gold-filled Cut Co "8479???? Shac" or "SS8479???? Shac" may be out there somewhere waiting to be found.

    It's funny how tastes change. In 1946 this pattern must have been considered highly desirable for Schrade to choose it as the Fortune knife. In 1955 the 848 wouldn't have been the subject of expensive advertising if Schrade thought it was a non-starter. In 2019 I watched a near-mint 849 come up for auction at $9.99 and it sat there for weeks with no bids.

    Personally, I think it is a very attractive and useful pattern and will continue to actively hunt for it.

    [edited to add this (slightly smaller) New York Knife Company MOP lobster similar to Schrade Cut Co 8476 from 1936 supplement]
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    Last edited: Dec 26, 2019
    Codger_64 likes this.
  13. jxr1197

    jxr1197

    40
    Dec 27, 2018
    That never occurred to me. Now I'm curious if there are any other patterns without numbers.
     
  14. bladecollectorr

    bladecollectorr

    170
    Oct 7, 2017
    Call me a skeptic. I took the opposite approach and figured H. Williams is fallible too when it comes to remembering 70+ year-old Schrade minutiae. He wasn't yet working for Schrade in 1946. My bet is the knife did have a number assigned to it which is why I'm digging into the pattern research.

    3000 knives x $125 = $375,000.00 in inventory

    $375,000 in 1946 equals $5,176,504.12 in 2019 (https://www.dollartimes.com/inflation/)

    Companies keep close track of what they have in stock, especially their most expensive items. I think the IRS would demand this.

    "Oh no, Mr. Taxman, we can't recall selling $5 million worth of those knives. They didn't have a model number so we didn't count them as revenue." ;)

    To my mind, there is absolutely no way Schrade tossed $5 million worth of knives in a box and kept no paperwork regarding them. Remember that each serialized knife could be individually registered. They had to write down something to keep track of them. I doubt it was "The Fortune Knife", the "Gift for the Distinguished Gentleman Knife" or anything along those lines.

    Just to play Devil's Advocate, are we 100% sure these knives had no paperwork at all included with them? I know that no one has posted any. I'm not sure that means it never existed. Who knows? Larry303's examples might be missing paperwork or a sales receipt with a model number on it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2019
  15. bladecollectorr

    bladecollectorr

    170
    Oct 7, 2017
    Last December I may have unwittingly become a "Distinguished Gentleman" when I landed Fortune knife #1402. Today it got cleaned, polished and scanned. Looks great!

    Since Larry was extra helpful when he weighed his example for us, I weighed mine. Number 1402 weighs 24.29 grams or 0.781 OZ Troy in total.

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    After buying the knife I added the giant-sized (10-1/2" wide x 13" tall x 3/4" thick) December 1946 issue of Fortune magazine to get the original Schrade Walden ad on page 73.

    The magazine has 292 pages plus cover. My copy has a shallow crack beginning to form on the spine and the covers have some scuffs but inside it's in unread condition. I'm still unsure as to whether or not I will remove the ad for framing as was my original intention.

    I'm thinking I may take a pass on the "American Champagne" unless it could transport me back to 1876 in "Pleasant Valley". Nearly every full-page ad in the magazine is retro-gold suitable for framing. Gorgeous artwork!

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    (not my ad)
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    Last edited: May 16, 2020
    Larry303 likes this.
  16. bladecollectorr

    bladecollectorr

    170
    Oct 7, 2017
    Today by coincidence, while I was scanning the fresh-cleaned Fortune knife I landed a Cut Co 8479GSil Shac predecessor to go with it. Nice trio with my 849. I think it should clean up real nice.

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    Last edited: May 16, 2020
    Codger_64 likes this.
  17. JustinR

    JustinR Gold Member Gold Member

    Feb 1, 2008
    Picked up this neat gold filled 775 the other day.

    Trying to read the hallmark has lead me to believe I may need a new pair of glasses. With a high resolution photo under magnification I believe it says 1/20 10K GF

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  18. jxr1197

    jxr1197

    40
    Dec 27, 2018
    I have a few knives at that weight too. That's the least amount of gold you'll find on any of the Schrade GFs as far as I know. The "1/20" refers to the weight of the gold shell on the surface of the scales. In this case 5% of the weight of each cover is a very thin layer of 10K gold. I think the most GF you'll see on a Schrade is 1/10 14K - or 10% weight shell of 14K gold. Even at 1/20 10K there is much more gold than if it was just plated.
     

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