I think I've realized something about edge retention...

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KennyB

Joined
Jan 19, 2010
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I'm staring to realize that I don't need a lot of wear resistance for my knives. I can't really recall many instances where I've been cutting something and had to sharpen half way through because the edge had dulled, and using a strop I can usually keep my carbon blades pretty much perpetually sharp with just a strop. Not to mention if i get a big ding or something, they're very easy to sharpen out so it's not really a big deal to sharpen; plus I like to sharpen, so sometimes I just touch them up for the heck of it.

I can't really say any of this for S30V, and so I don't think I really need steels with a lot of wear resistance. I wonder what most people really want wear resistance for. Is it to avoid sharpening in the middle of a cutting task, or just to avoid having to sharpen as much all together?

I think as far as edge retention goes, I'd probably be more interested in steels that won't dent or ding up as easily as all the steels I've tried. I hear ZDP-189 is pretty ding-resistant, but also a pain to sharpen. 1095 and Case CV ding up pretty easily, but it takes so little to sharpen them out it's kind of negligent. Can you even achieve such a thing with a steel that won't ding quite as easily, or is it pretty much always going to be harder to sharpen because of that?

I think how easily a steel sharpens is more important to me if any steel that won't ding up or dull for ages is just going to be very hard to sharpen. I mean, it's going to dull and get dings in it and you'll have to sharpen it eventually, and it seems the longer the steel can go the longer that sharpening time is. I don't necessarily mind taking a long time to sharpen, but I like to sharpen milder steels because I can get them sharper for the same amount of time.

To me it seems that most of the premium steels revolve around wear resistance. Say I wanted to get a premium knife with premium steel tomorrow, which steels are going to be the easier-to-sharpen variety versus the harder-to-wear variety?

I'm thinking of these steels, since they're the ones I most often see offered on premium knives

154CM
CPM-D2
D2
VG10
M390
CPM-M4
ZDP-189
 
VG-10 is really easy to sharpen, and isn't too expensive. That's probably why Spyderco uses it so much. The Sandvic 14c28n that Kershaw uses is very similar.
 
I've seen and read so many contrary reports about edge retention, stability, chipping, rolling, etc. that it's kinda hard to base your decision on charts and graphs.

There are a few BF members that have spent a lot of their free time measuring these factors - I'm sure they will weigh in before too long.

As far as I am concerned, I just like to try out the various steels for myself.

Wear resistance is important if you are going to be using the knife for extended periods of time away from any conventional sharpening system. I'm not in that position often.

I've owned or tried all the steels you listed, and for ME, the best all around steel right now is 154CM. I can sharpen it easily, it holds an edge well, and it's pretty tough for what I use a knife for.

I always have problems with D2 chipping, no matter how hard I try.

I find ZDP-189 and M390 hard to sharpen.

M4 cuts like a laser, but also harder to sharpen and a lot more apt to stain / patina / rust.

I like S30V, but it varies by maker based on heat treat. Some are easier to sharpen than others. My CRKs are easier than my Striders.

The very easiest steel I found is the mix they use for Victorinox SAK. Doesn't hold the edge as long as other steels, but I can get it razor sharp with minimal effort.

Try them all!!!

Next on my list is something in S90V.
 
The spyderco gayle bradley's M4 is pretty easy to get freaky sharp and edge retention is pretty much up with premium steels.
 
singularity35 said:
The spyderco gayle bradley's M4 is pretty easy to get freaky sharp and edge retention is pretty much up with premium steels.
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That's certainly true. But it's not up there with premium steels, it is a premium steel. M4 has better edge retention than VG-10, S30V, ZDP-189, etc. But the high hollow grind on the GB makes the edge thin, so it's easy to sharpen.
 
I actually like high wear resistance. Perhaps it's because I use power tools, but even S90V only proved to be mildly stubborn to sharpen. Still, that doesn't make me eager to sharpen my knives on a daily basis, so whatever lasts longer really goes a long way with me.

Plus, some of us have horribly abusive tasks that can dull an edge in a day(like cutting corn or cardboard). While I don't need to do such tasks all the time, it does help if I don't have enough time to sharpen my knives if I'm working 2 days in a row and the shifts are very close together.

For my uses, I find that only steels Ankerson listed with Category 2 or higher edge retention lasts me long enough.
 
I touch up all my knives after I use them,whether they need it or not.The only time that I might spend alot of time on the stones is the initial sharpening.After that I never let my knives get dull.I'll agree with Toyz,Victorinox SAKs are by far the easiest knives to sharpen.So,what I'm saying is that the high wear resistant steels don't get full appreciation with me.Not saying that I don't like to try them out though.
 
I have had mostly carbon steels and custom but a year ago got a benchmade 940 with s30v and the damn thing never gets dull enough to sharpen. It came very sharp but after a year of daily use, often at meals on hard porcelain and it is still sharp enough that I can put off sharpening. It is not as sharp as ideal but close enough to not bother with. I used to love sharpening my knives but now life is just to busy to allocate the time to just play with knives and getting them all obscenely sharp.
 
I don't really even care about steel anymore. They've all performed pretty much similarly throughout all of my experience in cutting cardboard (which makes up most of my cutting activity.)

The only steel that I didn't really like was AUS-8 because it just wouldn't lose its burr.

ZDP-189 was great because it resisted all sorts of scratching, didn't take ANY damage when I smacked the edge on a dumpster, and sharpened easily because of its hardness (burr wasn't a problem.) But for some reason on both knives I had with this steel, it absolutely SUCKED for cutting cardboard, at least. I would make a couple cuts, and the edge would be straight up DEAD, flat, and couldn't even scratch any enamel off of my finger nail.

VG-10 is my benchmark steel. It likes burrs like AUS-8, but it isn't too difficult to sharpen out. Its edge also lasts and lasts.

13C26 was also a great steel. It ranked somewhat behind VG-10 in edge retention, but it is much easier to sharpen, and I think it takes a finer edge.

S30V was the only steel I've used so far that had significantly better edge retention compared to my benchmark VG-10. I have no problem sharpening it, and it keeps its working edge forever.

That's my brief take on steels :)
 
Tsujigiri said:
That's certainly true. But it's not up there with premium steels, it is a premium steel. M4 has better edge retention than VG-10, S30V, ZDP-189, etc. But the high hollow grind on the GB makes the edge thin, so it's easy to sharpen.
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Good to know, I've been looking at the Gayle Bradley for a while now and considering it my next purchase.

Bhamster,

I've never dulled my S30V to the point where it wouldn't cut what I wanted it to, and I've let it go with no sharpening for about three months. Problem is that I have lot of downtime and I'll take an edge out, see how many dings there are in it, and if there's too many or they're too big I'll feel the need to strop/sharpen them out. S30V seems to take dings in it just as much as the other steels I've tried, but to be fair that's only Case CV, Kershaw/Sandvik's 14C28N, ESEE/KaBar 1095 and some 440. Only issue is that the dings don't come out as readily with a strop as they do with these other steels.

THG,

Yeah, your ZDP-189 dumpster story is what caught my eye about that steel. I'm wondering if maybe because it's so hard it just don't dent/ding up that easily. Which would be nice, because even if it was hard to sharpen, I probably wouldn't feel the need if I wasn't dinging the edge up.
 
I agree that chipping and denting are bigger issues that wear residence. But I'm not entirely sure that the two are not somehow related. I am a pretty bad at sharpening so dent and dings really give me trouble. All I comfortably use is my Sharpmaker, with all the extra Rods.
But I don't mind and I comfortably use my bench strop all the time to put and maintain a wicked edge on all my knives. So I agree that a hard steel is great for this but for that sharpeningly challenged getting a ding out of S-30v is not nearly as easy as 8cr13mov.
So I'm not sure what I prefer. But I know I don't like to take out chips and dents and I don't mind stropping.
 
If you read what these steels are used for it may help you get a better understanding of "wear resistance". Wear resistance will play a role in how well your knife will hold a edge but not the type of edge holding you seem to want.

The CPM stainless class of steels pretty much all act the same and hold a razor sharp edge for very similar amounts of time. No matter if its S30V or S125V the razor sharpness is gone within the first few cuts but followed by a burred and toothy edge that continues to cut until the cows come home.

The advantage of the increased wear resistance besides the wear seems to be higher resistance to small deformations of the edge.

When I tested S125V the edge never looked dull, it never showed denting or deformation, and showed no flat spots. When you felt the edge though it just felt rough and not very sharp but would still cut like a very sharp knife unless you were doing fine work. Instead of the normal deformations, dents, chips, flat spots, and rolls the edge looks sand blasted evenly from front to back. The positive of this is the edge retains its shape better and is one of the greater reasons high wear resistance steels keep cutting longer.

Your method of sharpening can also greatly effect the performance you see in these steels, your angles, abrasives, bevel types, and grit of finish play as much of a role as the things you are cutting.

You like most want a knife that will keep that sharp feel for the longest time. Unfortunately your not going to find this feature in most PM steels. Steels you would like would be standard stainless and carbon steels such as, 12c27, 14c, AUS-8a, VG-10, 154cm, CPM-154, 52100, 1095, O1, A2, and CPM-M4.

When it comes to sharp edge retention I can't think of a better steel than 52100 at a high Rc. This steel takes a crazy sharp edge and will hold it for days, comparing spyderco mule team knives 52100 put shame to S90V and CPM-M4 and needed little more than a strop to make it shaving sharp again. That's not to say if I was cutting open bags of dirt, timming drywall, or cutting carpet the story would stay the same. For what most people use a knife for these super alloys with extreme wear resistance are being used at about 10% of their potential. When the average perception of dull kicks in these steels are just getting warmed up but because all common knowledge tells you "this knife is dull" your idea of it GREAT edge retention might become skewed.
 
Bhamster said:
I have had mostly carbon steels and custom but a year ago got a benchmade 940 with s30v and the damn thing never gets dull enough to sharpen. It came very sharp but after a year of daily use, often at meals on hard porcelain and it is still sharp enough that I can put off sharpening. It is not as sharp as ideal but close enough to not bother with. I used to love sharpening my knives but now life is just to busy to allocate the time to just play with knives and getting them all obscenely sharp.
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my first "real knife" was in s30v by Spyderco. I too went about a year before sharpening (didn't know how at the time) and I'll say, it definitely kept a passable working edge for a ridiculous amount of time. I was easier on knives then, and less picky about levels of sharpness, though.

that said, I really am starting to feel the same way. love getting an opinel or SAK razor sharp in a few seconds. s30v is more of a chore, admittedly it's not too bad, but still...
 
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knifenut1013 said:
If you read what these steels are used for it may help you get a better understanding of "wear resistance". Wear resistance will play a role in how well your knife will hold a edge but not the type of edge holding you seem to want.

The CPM stainless class of steels pretty much all act the same and hold a razor sharp edge for very similar amounts of time. No matter if its S30V or S125V the razor sharpness is gone within the first few cuts but followed by a burred and toothy edge that continues to cut until the cows come home.

The advantage of the increased wear resistance besides the wear seems to be higher resistance to small deformations of the edge.

When I tested S125V the edge never looked dull, it never showed denting or deformation, and showed no flat spots. When you felt the edge though it just felt rough and not very sharp but would still cut like a very sharp knife unless you were doing fine work. Instead of the normal deformations, dents, chips, flat spots, and rolls the edge looks sand blasted evenly from front to back. The positive of this is the edge retains its shape better and is one of the greater reasons high wear resistance steels keep cutting longer.

Your method of sharpening can also greatly effect the performance you see in these steels, your angles, abrasives, bevel types, and grit of finish play as much of a role as the things you are cutting.

You like most want a knife that will keep that sharp feel for the longest time. Unfortunately your not going to find this feature in most PM steels. Steels you would like would be standard stainless and carbon steels such as, 12c27, 14c, AUS-8a, VG-10, 154cm, CPM-154, 52100, 1095, O1, A2, and CPM-M4.

When it comes to sharp edge retention I can't think of a better steel than 52100 at a high Rc. This steel takes a crazy sharp edge and will hold it for days, comparing spyderco mule team knives 52100 put shame to S90V and CPM-M4 and needed little more than a strop to make it shaving sharp again. That's not to say if I was cutting open bags of dirt, timming drywall, or cutting carpet the story would stay the same. For what most people use a knife for these super alloys with extreme wear resistance are being used at about 10% of their potential. When the average perception of dull kicks in these steels are just getting warmed up but because all common knowledge tells you "this knife is dull" your idea of it GREAT edge retention might become skewed.
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Yeah, so far I've noticed that I like 1095 and 14C28N over the S30V when it comes to having dings in it since they're easier to just strop out even.

I've never seen much production stuff offered in 51200. I've been shopping for steel to start making knives with and I know it's a popular choice. Do you think that it resists dinging and denting up well too?
 
Its a carbon steel so it will mostly be found in fixed blades. Dents and dings? well that depends on a lot of things but your not going to find much issue unless you get really abusive.

For your S30V try a coarser finish.
 
KennyB said:
THG,

Yeah, your ZDP-189 dumpster story is what caught my eye about that steel. I'm wondering if maybe because it's so hard it just don't dent/ding up that easily. Which would be nice, because even if it was hard to sharpen, I probably wouldn't feel the need if I wasn't dinging the edge up.
Click to expand...

I'm sure it's that it's so hard that it doesn't dent/ding/scratch easily. Cutting cardboard scratches up my VG-10 blades, but ZDP-189 still looks new after lots of cutting.

I wouldn't call this steel hard to sharpen. If anything, it's easier to sharpen because it doesn't burr very easily. It simply takes longer (about 3x longer) - that's all.
 
knifenut1013 said:
If you read what these steels are used for it may help you get a better understanding of "wear resistance". Wear resistance will play a role in how well your knife will hold a edge but not the type of edge holding you seem to want.

The CPM stainless class of steels pretty much all act the same and hold a razor sharp edge for very similar amounts of time. No matter if its S30V or S125V the razor sharpness is gone within the first few cuts but followed by a burred and toothy edge that continues to cut until the cows come home.

The advantage of the increased wear resistance besides the wear seems to be higher resistance to small deformations of the edge.

When I tested S125V the edge never looked dull, it never showed denting or deformation, and showed no flat spots. When you felt the edge though it just felt rough and not very sharp but would still cut like a very sharp knife unless you were doing fine work. Instead of the normal deformations, dents, chips, flat spots, and rolls the edge looks sand blasted evenly from front to back. The positive of this is the edge retains its shape better and is one of the greater reasons high wear resistance steels keep cutting longer.

Your method of sharpening can also greatly effect the performance you see in these steels, your angles, abrasives, bevel types, and grit of finish play as much of a role as the things you are cutting.

You like most want a knife that will keep that sharp feel for the longest time. Unfortunately your not going to find this feature in most PM steels. Steels you would like would be standard stainless and carbon steels such as, 12c27, 14c, AUS-8a, VG-10, 154cm, CPM-154, 52100, 1095, O1, A2, and CPM-M4.

When it comes to sharp edge retention I can't think of a better steel than 52100 at a high Rc. This steel takes a crazy sharp edge and will hold it for days, comparing spyderco mule team knives 52100 put shame to S90V and CPM-M4 and needed little more than a strop to make it shaving sharp again. That's not to say if I was cutting open bags of dirt, timming drywall, or cutting carpet the story would stay the same. For what most people use a knife for these super alloys with extreme wear resistance are being used at about 10% of their potential. When the average perception of dull kicks in these steels are just getting warmed up but because all common knowledge tells you "this knife is dull" your idea of it GREAT edge retention might become skewed.
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^ +1. very well said.
 
knifenut1013 said:
....You like most want a knife that will keep that sharp feel for the longest time. Unfortunately your not going to find this feature in most PM steels. Steels you would like would be standard stainless and carbon steels such as, 12c27, 14c, AUS-8a, VG-10, 154cm, CPM-154, 52100, 1095, O1, A2, and CPM-M4.

When it comes to sharp edge retention I can't think of a better steel than 52100 at a high Rc. This steel takes a crazy sharp edge and will hold it for days, comparing spyderco mule team knives 52100 put shame to S90V and CPM-M4 and needed little more than a strop to make it shaving sharp again. That's not to say if I was cutting open bags of dirt, timming drywall, or cutting carpet the story would stay the same. For what most people use a knife for these super alloys with extreme wear resistance are being used at about 10% of their potential. When the average perception of dull kicks in these steels are just getting warmed up but because all common knowledge tells you "this knife is dull" your idea of it GREAT edge retention might become skewed.
Click to expand...

Great post Knifenut. You nailed it for me. Like Kenny, I'm just a knife nut & don't use my knives very hard for any amount of time. Once they get to that point of dullness you alluded to I start itching to break out the sharpening gear.

I do enjoy putting freaky edges on them & Cliff Stamp's notion of "edge stability" always intrigued me more than maximum edge retention. I'm more of a budding edge snob than a steel snob. I'm happy with my AUS8 & VG10 & have heard a ton of great stuff about 12C27. Thanks for summing it up like that.
 
For the last couple of days I've been installing 6" insulation, and doing a lot of cutting for length. I've been using a knife with S30V, but have been unimpressed with the steel's staying power, needing to touch the edge up after every two cuts or so.

I used to use a cheapo double edged "duct knife" I bought for a few bucks from Home Depot. That knife was IIRC made by Old Hickory and was probably 1095. That knife cut insulation like crazy, though was easy to sharpen.

I need to find that knife or buy another. I miss it for this job.

Andy
 
Andrew Colglazier said:
For the last couple of days I've been installing 6" insulation, and doing a lot of cutting for length. I've been using a knife with S30V, but have been unimpressed with the steel's staying power, needing to touch the edge up after every two cuts or so.

I used to use a cheapo double edged "duct knife" I bought for a few bucks from Home Depot. That knife was IIRC made by Old Hickory and was probably 1095. That knife cut insulation like crazy, though was easy to sharpen.

I need to find that knife or buy another. I miss it for this job.

Andy
Click to expand...

the steel's heat treatment, blade design and edge angle will also effect cutting performance. what knife were you using?
 
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