Idea: Historic and Indigenous Blade Forum

M

mps

Joined
Feb 17, 1999
Messages
155
Is there anybody else out there that likes to discuss and research historic and native blades? I don't know much of anything about those topics, which perhaps explains my interest in learning more. But I'd be very open to more discussions about why certain cultures might have gone with certain blade types etc. Any others think that would make an interesting forum topic?

mps
 
I'm very interested, but I doubt I know any more than you do. If we start a new forum for a topic that nobody is currently posting on the general forum ... would there be any posts? I'd love to get some threads going on the subject, though, and maybe all we need is an appeal to those who know something to post.

We have members all over the world -- can any of you post some info on historic and indiginous blades? I'm sure MPS and I are not the only ones interested; far from it. Whatever country you live in, or if you happen to collect or know something about the native blades of other countries, please share what you know.

-Cougar Allen :{)
 
Sounds like it may be a good topic for the Collectors Corner forum.
 
I'd love a forum such as that. The problem is I think it would take awhile to catch on, and even then it would be a slow one due to requisite research.

I think that Bill Martino's HI forum does some of this...the threads wander all over history.
But it makes a helluva lot more sense than Rec KnivesII
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I agree with you DC, if we're going to have a slow starting forum, it may as well be one with some redeaming educational value. Besides, I think we may have more depth of knowledge around here than we think.
 
OK..
Here is a start:
The "willow leaf" pattern. Almost every culture has it and refers to it as a "willow leaf".
Some of the first refined knapped stone blades were specifically patterned after it.
 
Well -- let's test the water first, as they say. Maybe we can do so by inviting others to post in this thread and see if there are enough interest.

For my part: The Balisong. We also call this "batangas" from the province here in the Philippines where this folder originated.

I am proud that this folder has become famous throughout the world. Being a Filipino, I guess I have to research more on this native knife as there are lot of Americans in this forum more knowledgeable than I
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[This message has been edited by Titan (edited 25 March 1999).]
 
I would like this forum alot because now I travel around and around and around this world. I have love to check out what other countries craftmen are producing especially knives!

Endre

Gotta love Mom's kimchee!
 
The willow leaf blade is a very interesting choice!
It WAS originally used in knapped blades, and from my short and inept period of trying to learn flint knapping, I can tell you that this was not really a matter of "design" but more a matter of the characteristics of the materials involved. Flint or obsidian have a tendency to pruduce a curved edge when knapped. It;'s really a combination of the grain of the stone and the actual process of knapping the blade. Hard to demonstrate without pictures or better yet, a short movie!
Let me just say that it's not really how the knapper's planned it, it's just how it turned out. It's a fair leap in logic to assume that when our ancestors made the transition from stone to bronze, they would take with them the patterns that they knew from stone blades. These had always worked in the past, so why wouldn't they work even better with a better material?
This would explain why the willow leaf pattern is ubiquitous.
A lot of this is theory on my part, any one who can confirm or deny, feel free!

------------------
I cut it, and I cut it, and it's STILL too short!

 
Hey Endre, do you really love the kimchee? Wow, I miss my mom's kimchee so much here at school. But the other day, a friend made kimchee jeegae for a few of us... ooooohhh it was so good! (sorry, it's late, and I should be studying
smile.gif
).
pk
 
A Forum would be good, but in order to do it right, there would need to be an archivist. That person could also be the moderator, but their responsibilities would have to include archive maintenance.

That person would find resources, and scan them in to storage to be retrieved by all.

I have an archive of sorts, in my quest to learn as much about knives as possible, I have about two milk crates worth of photocopies of various shapes and etcetera.

Indigenous patterns, ethnic patterns, classic patterns(development and evolution of patterns like the dropped hunter and Kamp Bowie, originally by Moran I think then it saw production by BlackJack, amd now Mineral Mountain Hatrchet Works makes one). We could also include axes and other bladed implements. American Patterns, Work patterns, we could even include the classic lines, like Scagel imagery, Chappel imagery, Loveless imagery. Randall imagery.

To work right we would have to get a fund together to buy old knife magazines and such to do more research.....

Sounds like fun, hope that person like research....

------------------
Check out the future possible Spyderco Worker 2000 www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum20/HTML/000224.html

One may want to keep an Eye out for my review of the Bob Kasper designed, Kevin Gentile modified AFCK and interview of Bob Kasper. Sorry about the wait, my review and interview should be online shortly, luckily Spark has graciously offered to do the pictures, look for it right here at BladeForums.com.

Marion David Poff ska Eye, one can msg me at mdpoff@hotmail.com

"A journey of a thousand miles begins but with a single step" Lao-Tzu
 
pk, my mother-in-law makes(brew?)the best kimchee in Seoul. She used to be a chef for a local hotel. She has a collection of knives (sharp too!)that can slice, dice, slash, and spear just any meat, fruit, or veggie on the penisula. Her longest knife has a whopping 16 inches blade and it is her main kitchen knife. Strangely enough she bad mouth me for carry my G10 Police in my back pocket. I tell her that it an American tradition for all Americans( am I sterotyping, sorry, I just a patriotic type of guy)to carry a knife(s) for whatever reason. My favorite Korean dishes are Kom tang and Ox tail soup, Yum, Yum.

Endre
Gotta to love Mom's kimchee and the Red, White and Blue, HOO AH!
 
For historically correct early American patterns visit Double Edge Forge. I think the address is www.wesnet.com/knives1/.
I know it was posted in an earlier thread with a link by Cogar. Dennis Miles is the smithy of the forge. He makes historically correct belt knives, hawks, and camp knives, and other accoutrements for the period re-enactor. Very reasonable prices, very well made, and very fast service. I just purchased my second knife from him to go with my larger belt knife. How's about a 4.25" blade with walnut handle slabs, the blade is forged from a hayrake, deep bellied, and the slabs are sealed with a combination of wax, bess wax, and pine pitch.
He edge tempers them in hog lard and then draws the back the spine with a heated pig iron and lays the spine across it. He then finishes the knife on a trundle stone. Which is foot operated. He has a great site with excellant pics, and his designs are based on period drawings and museum pieces.
Can't tell you how happy I am with mine to go with my outfit. NOw to get one of his hawks. Keep'em sharp.
 
Well, good. It looks like there's enough interest for several of us to at least amuse ourselves, and certainly learn a bit as we go.

For starters, where do you all get your info? What are some good sources for those of us hungry for more data? Somebody mentioned magazines. That's one source I've not really availed myself of, since I got turned off to the knife rags early on by shallow and inconsistant articles, but that's a whole 'nother topic and I don't want to derail this thread with it. Are there some magazines that do better at covering knife history?

I've got a bunch of books on knives, guns, history, you name it. But four that I find so invaluable that I keep them close at hand to this computer are:

Levine's Guide to Knives and Their Values, By Bernard Levine, pub DBI Books, -- Mine is only the 3rd ed. but their is at least a 4th ed out. (maybe even a 5th)

"The Book of the Sword" by Richard Burton, pub Dover

"Swords and Hilt Weapons", by Coe, Connolly, Harding, Harris, LaRocca, North, Richardson, Spring & Wilkinson, pub. Barnes & Noble Books

"Weapons: An International Encyclopedia from 5000BC to 2000AD, pub. The Diagram Group

All of those should be readily available at Barnes & Noble or Amazon.

Another special one for the flintknappers is:
"Making Silent Stones Speak" by Schick and Toth, pub. Simon & Schuster-- - It's not a flintknapping primer, but rather an archaelogical study that I like so well that I bought and gave out several copies to interested rec.knives posters awhile back.

That book inspired me to sign up for a local flintknapping class put on by our state Primitive Bowhunter's Ass. and it was one of the most enjoyable seminars I think I've ever been to. If you can find a flintknapping seminar or course in your area, I'd _highly_ recommend taking the time to see what it's about.

As to the willow leaf shape, one interesting note is that not all knappable rocks lend themselves to it. In this area, the best that can be had in terms of stuff to pressure flake is some Rhyolite several hours drive from here. It's extremely easy to flake into very "authentic" looking wide body arrowheads, but much more difficult to form into long slender shapes since it tends to fracture wrong. This goes a long way towards explaining why different tribes in different areas produced such different looking arrowheads and knives.

Anyway, what books or sources inspired you? What would you recommend?

mps
 
Well, good. It looks like there's enough interest for several of us to at least amuse ourselves, and certainly learn a bit as we go.

For starters, where do you all get your info? What are some good sources for those of us hungry for more data? Somebody mentioned magazines. That's one source I've not really availed myself of, since I got turned off to the knife rags early on by shallow and inconsistant articles, but that's a whole 'nother topic and I don't want to derail this thread with it. Are there some magazines that do better at covering knife history?

I've got a bunch of books on knives, guns, history, you name it. But four that I find so invaluable that I keep them close at hand to this computer are:

Levine's Guide to Knives and Their Values, By Bernard Levine, pub DBI Books, -- Mine is only the 3rd ed. but their is at least a 4th ed out. (maybe even a 5th)

"The Book of the Sword" by Richard Burton, pub Dover

"Swords and Hilt Weapons", by Coe, Connolly, Harding, Harris, LaRocca, North, Richardson, Spring & Wilkinson, pub. Barnes & Noble Books

"Weapons: An International Encyclopedia from 5000BC to 2000AD, pub. The Diagram Group

All of those should be readily available at Barnes & Noble or Amazon.

Another special one for the flintknappers is:
"Making Silent Stones Speak" by Schick and Toth, pub. Simon & Schuster-- - It's not a flintknapping primer, but rather an archaelogical study that I like so well that I bought and gave out several copies to interested rec.knives posters awhile back.

That book inspired me to sign up for a local flintknapping class put on by our state Primitive Bowhunter's Ass. and it was one of the most enjoyable seminars I think I've ever been to. If you can find a flintknapping seminar or course in your area, I'd _highly_ recommend taking the time to see what it's about.

As to the willow leaf shape, one interesting note is that not all knappable rocks lend themselves to it. In this area, the best that can be had in terms of stuff to pressure flake is some Rhyolite several hours drive from here. It's extremely easy to flake into very "authentic" looking wide body arrowheads, but much more difficult to form into long slender shapes since it tends to fracture wrong. This goes a long way towards explaining why different tribes in different areas produced such different looking arrowheads and knives.

Anyway, what books or sources inspired you? What would you recommend?

mps
 
Levine's book is good.

The Diagram Weapon's book is surprisingly good.

Custom makers catalogs are good, some have unique patterns fo historical value.

The rags are not too good, but if you look between the lines you can find interesting stuff, by like looking at the ads, and looking for mentions of things.

Also martial arts books sometimes have references to specific shapes.

Knives Annuals, you see the odd cool knife.

MDP
 
I don't know what's up with this double posting BS. My server has been screwier than Wm. Jefferson Clinton lately. ;(

I like the way Marion David Poff thinks. I wanted to guage interest, and he wants to build an archive. I nominate him to head up the project.
wink.gif


Has anybody heard from daithi recently? He'd be up for something like this and probably already has a wealth of info.

One whole area that I'd like to learn more about is African blades. It seems like one hardly ever heres much about what various peoples in the Untamed Continent use or have used. Has anybody here ever thought about the weird corrollary between the bizarre multibladed throwing knives that were once used as signs of wealth in Africa and the huge round pierced stones that were too large to move that indicated wealth to some in the Pacific Islands?

mps
 
The Journey from Eden: The Peopling of Our World by Brian Fagan
This is an anthropological book that contrasts the the 2 theories of modern human origin (Noah's Ark vs Candelabra)...i.e did homo sapiens arise/evolve independently and in parallel in different parts of the world (Candelabra) or did homo sapiens evolve in Africa and radiate out to colonize the world (Noah's Ark).

The development and evolution of various flint knapping processes/styles are discussed in depth, including the development of the "toolkit".

Very interesting and informative
 
Thanks for the tip on the book, DC. I'm going out to Borders tonite anyway, I'll look for it, it sounds interesting.
 
DC, I tried ordering "Journey From Eden..." from Barnes & Noble, but they say it's out of print. I looked in 3 local used bookstores today and had no luck. I did find 2 copies of another Brian Fagan book called "Time Detectives" but didn't buy one since it didn't look like it had much on knives, flintknapping, etc. I guess I'll ask one of the search services to find me a copy of "...Eden...". Thanks for recomending it, though. What others?

mps
 
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