identifying a japanese blade

B

bdon

Joined
Oct 6, 2011
Messages
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admittedly, i dont know a lot about swords, nor have i ever even had one until i happened into this one.
i know its a japanese katana. thats all i know.
i've taken pictures of the signature and i hope that someone might be able to decipher it for me. to let me know what i have.
i would apprecieate it a great deal and thanks.

b.

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I took the liberty of reposting your pictures since you had posted using html code instead of BB code. Hope you don't mind.

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I'm thinking a Chinese made katana. The Japanese did have NCO swords which where stamped with a number and machine made. They where never signed as they where made by a machine. The kissaki does not look to be well formed. This leads me to think Chinese. I could be wrong. I cannot read kanji so I do not know if it makes sense or not. I would check out Richard Steins site and seek his help.

http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/nihonto.htm
 
mross said:
I'm thinking a Chinese made katana...
http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/nihonto.htm
Click to expand...

appreciated, however, i do know that it came from japan (weather it was made there, i really dont know). there were issues when taking it from japan, not sure about the details, but it has been dulled (to comply with export laws, i guess). im not sure that even then it was exported correctly, judging by the way the rest of the stuff came into the country, i would almost guess that it wasnt, but who knows....
 
I checked with a Japanese guy who's studying over here. He said that the name is Japanese but he thinks the sword was made in China. He looked up the characters online and they led him to a Chinese website with the same name. Communications is a bit of a problem so that's about all I can tell you.
 
Can't see the photos from the office here, but anything about dulling the edge to comply with export is rubbish. ;-) Will hop on to my phone here, half a mo...
 
Not a Shin Gunto, but a *very* dangerous copy. This is almost right, which means the Chinese are paying moer attention to detail. Not good.
 
The translation is this. "Munetsugu" is a first name (I am told), "Bizen no suke" is a title of honor.

Bizen no suke Munetsugu
 
DAGuertin said:
Not a Shin Gunto, but a *very* dangerous copy. This is almost right, which means the Chinese are paying moer attention to detail. Not good.
Click to expand...

It's even worse then that. On the higher end swords they have the shape, hada, hamon and kissaki good enough to give the greybeards cause for pause. If the market is there it's only a matter of time before they get it "right"
 
mross said:
It's even worse then that. On the higher end swords they have the shape, hada, hamon and kissaki good enough to give the greybeards cause for pause. If the market is there it's only a matter of time before they get it "right"
Click to expand...

On this particular sword, it's difficult to tell if it's Chinese fake or Japanese fake. Munetsugu is one of the few smiths to have fakes made while he was still alive. Due to the machine buffing the sword has been subjected to, it's difficult to see the hamon (if it is one) but Munetsugu very rarely made suguha (straight hamon) and they are all said to be ko-aoe style which this doesn't appear to be. A window polish would confirm, but my suspicion is that it won't be worth it.

http://www.to-ken.com/articles/munetsugu.htm

PS. The gunto fittings are also disproportionate, but they wouldn't be original to the blade anyway.
 
i am reasonably certain that this sword has some age and for some reason 80 years is in my head.
when this sword was aquired, there was a second. it looked older and was in an all wood scabard.
i dont have it, but i know where it is. because they came here as a pair, perhaps knowing that blade could help identify this one.
i will see what i can do about getting good photos of that sword as well.
thank you, so far. your insight is appreciated and i will get back with more photos....
 
Hoping someone can educate me here, since I know very little about gunto.
There are a lot of aspects of this sword that are very sloppy: the shape of the blade, the polish, the mekugi, etc. How much slop is expected in gunto blades and fittings?
Thanks,
Chris
 
Coming from a complete no one in regards to Japanese blades.

Google shows that nihonto.com says, "the title of "Bizen no suke" wasn't bestowed upon Munetsugu until 1845, and he worked in his trade up until the Meiji period". Another google search shows the Meiji period began sometime in 1868.

Authenticity at face value, isn't looking so good to me.
 
First off this is not a genuine piece.

As mentioned before machine made blade would NOT be signed. if they were signed it certainly would NOT look like the nakago shown. The patine is completely wrong, actually there is NO real patina.
Most of the fittings are a bit of a puzzle... While a couple pieces look right the patina gives it away as a fake on others.
Blade looks bad, either machine ground then fake "hand polishing" to cover up the grind marks or just very very very poor polishing, which to me makes no sense for a machine made blade.

The really interesting thing is this is a step up in fakes due to the a few of the koshirae looking genuine, however still easy to tell because the fittings were touched up and given a shine, which makes no sense for a 60-70 year old koshirae. It is very possible they may have bought a few real but non valuable japanese fittings from WWII, it is actually not uncommon at all for this to happen.

Whoever said this sword has been to Japan is lying. No way. There is absolutely NO import of steel blades AT ALL unless they are nihonto with proper paper work. Blunt or sharp. Blunting a steel blade means ABSOLUTELY nothing, it can be resharpened easily. So unless that blade is some aluminum alloy, it will NOT pass period. It is either destroyed or you get back on the airplane and leave.

Oops almost forgot. In my opinion it is VERY likely this fake chinese sword may have been assembled elsewhere from China. The blade/crap was bought from China and someone outside of China gathered the materials needed to make a more convincing fake to sell for a major profit.
 
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Hi bdon,

My opinion is that this is not a genuine Japanese made sword.
The quality of the sword and fittings is poor compared to even low quality machine made WW2 Gunto(which can be signed and dated - I have one).
This is without considering the signature.
If you consider that Bizen (no) Suke Munetsugu was a known master and could produce copies(not fakes but genuine, traditional reproductions) of famous older blades, the quality of your sword is lacking entirely.

*edit* I just took a shot of the kabutogane(pommel) on a sword of mine to show the difference in quality. Shot is at a similar angle to your photo so you can compare.


You can compare your sword to a genuine Munetsugu as well.
http://www.trocadero.com/giuseppepiva/items/820313/en1store.html
 
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