identifying a japanese blade

Lee Bray said:
Hi bdon,

My opinion is that this is not a genuine Japanese made sword.
The quality of the sword and fittings is poor compared to even low quality machine made WW2 Gunto(which can be signed and dated - I have one).
This is without considering the signature.
If you consider that Bizen (no) Suke Munetsugu was a known master and could produce copies(not fakes but genuine, traditional reproductions) of famous older blades, the quality of your sword is lacking entirely.
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From my understanding sometimes they can be signed however it's because they either showed a certain quality and was at least clay tempered or because one student signed it which happened by whatever reason. Those were some frantic factories, sometimes pumping out utter crap.
Lee Bray there were some WWII katana that came out far worse then that, some even broke when cutting tatami omote... Not even bamboo wrapped tatami omote just a single tatami omote.

Still fake is fake.
 
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Lee Bray said:
Hi bdon,
I just took a shot of the kabutogane(pommel) on a sword of mine to show the difference in quality. Shot is at a similar angle to your photo so you can compare.
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bdon said:
imgp46131280x1068.jpg
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im trying to see the difference in workmanship your talking about. sure, the design is slightly different, but i am sorry, i dont see a difference in quality of workmanship here.


it's difficult to see the hamon (if it is one) ...
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it is hard to see, especially in the photo, but it is in fact there and it is straight.
the blade also has a very consistant 'grain' running all the way through it. when you look straight down the length of the blade it certainly does not look like it came out of a machine. it has a very natural look, almost like a blade of grass.

The patine is completely wrong, actually there is NO real patina.
Most of the fittings are a bit of a puzzle... While a couple pieces look right the patina gives it away as a fake on others.
The really interesting thing is this is a step up in fakes due to the a few of the koshirae looking genuine, however still easy to tell because the fittings were touched up and given a shine, which makes no sense for a 60-70 year old koshirae. It is very possible they may have bought a few real but non valuable japanese fittings from WWII, it is actually not uncommon at all for this to happen.
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the fittings are not 'touched up' on this sword. they've not been artificially aged or buffed (i am professionally employed in apraisal and antiques. i do have a great deal of experience in that aspect) and all of the pieces are stamped with the same number '324'. ALL of the pieces, including the scabard.
there is also a quiver for arrows that came along with it. it is made of the same leather that covers the scabard, same dye, same hand stitching.

Whoever said this sword has been to Japan is lying. No way. There is absolutely NO import of steel blades AT ALL unless they are nihonto with proper paper work. Blunt or sharp. Blunting a steel blade means ABSOLUTELY nothing, it can be resharpened easily. So unless that blade is some aluminum alloy, it will NOT pass period. It is either destroyed or you get back on the airplane and leave.
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if you misunderstood, i am sorry, but i never meant to say this sword left japan legally, because i really dont think it did, but it DID in fact, for surely LEAVE japan to come to canada.
of that, i am absolutely, 100% positive. so, unless somebody brought it from china to japan first, it was never in china either.
please, nobody is LYING and i have only presented this to you AS IT IS. you should not let it upset you.

i also dont quite understand what y'all are meaning by 'fake'. this IS an old JAPANESE sword and the parts arent mismatched. its not aged or buffed, but it was probably never really used then well stored for quite some time. it is a 'real' sword in every sense of the word, not a decoration and absolutely functional and 'battle ready'. this much i can tell.
but thanks again for your opinions and if anyone KNOWS whats going on here, feel free to chime in...
 
You say in your first post that you know nothing about swords then you dismiss several peoples opinion that you have a fake sword.
With all due respect, why bother asking in the first place?

If you're not interested in our opinions, take it to a sword show and have someone look at it in hand.

*P.S.* Did you compare your sword to the Munetsugu I linked to?
Surely you can see a world of difference there?
 
bdon said:
im trying to see the difference in workmanship your talking about. sure, the design is slightly different, but i am sorry, i dont see a difference in quality of workmanship here.




it is hard to see, especially in the photo, but it is in fact there and it is straight.
the blade also has a very consistant 'grain' running all the way through it. when you look straight down the length of the blade it certainly does not look like it came out of a machine. it has a very natural look, almost like a blade of grass.


B
the fittings are not 'touched up' on this sword. they've not been artificially aged or buffed (i am professionally employed in apraisal and antiques. i do have a great deal of experience in that aspect) and all of the pieces are stamped with the same number '324'. ALL of the pieces, including the scabard.
there is also a quiver for arrows that came along with it. it is made of the same leather that covers the scabard, same dye, same hand stitching.

if you misunderstood, i am sorry, but i never meant to say this sword left japan legally, because i really dont think it did, but it DID in fact, for surely LEAVE japan to come to canada.
of that, i am absolutely, 100% positive. so, unless somebody brought it from china to japan first, it was never in china either.
please, nobody is LYING and i have only presented this to you AS IT IS. you should not let it upset you.

i also dont quite understand what y'all are meaning by 'fake'. this IS an old JAPANESE sword and the parts arent mismatched. its not aged or buffed, but it was probably never really used then well stored for quite some time. it is a 'real' sword in every sense of the word, not a decoration and absolutely functional and 'battle ready'. this much i can tell.
but thanks again for your opinions and if anyone KNOWS whats going on here, feel free to chime in...
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Let's not take this personal you guys this guy is just trying to get an honest opinion which we failed to do when presented with crappy pictures.

Bdon please don't take offense but before we go any further:

1. Take pictures with a flour scent bulb hitting the blade dead on to reveal the hamon, if it is there it WILL pop up even though the polish is terribly done, no Japanese polisher had their hands on this.
Or better yet please scan the blade this will reveal ANY hamon, hada, and activities this is what nihonto collects have to do to reveal everything in one shot. Take picture of the tsuka core. Pictures of the kashira, habaki, seppa and tsuba individually.
2. The nakago is ruined, genuine or not there is no patina present this means it was cleaned by an amateur which could make it as worthless as a fake or it is a fake. The patina on the koshirae is obviously forced. These are NOT opinions just facts.
3. Samegawa does not looked like it aged properly at all, once again probably forced.
4. Ito maki looks like crap but not really a negative some WWII "swords" had some pretty crappy ito maki as well. Cord looks like utter crap though and not something I have ever seen on a genuine gunto apart from bad mountings.
5. No the sword was NOT well stored. The patina looks forced, synthetic, not natural. Someone obviously tried to fake a patina on the fittings. The patina on the nakago occurs even in WELL preserved nihonto in shirasaya made of the highest quality honoki. The fact the kissaki is messed up to hell doesn't help it's value at all.
6. No comment on leaving Japan, I don't buy it. It's about as far fetched as it ever going in. Please elaborate or provide proof so we can hopefully get a clearer picture.

I am now pulling sources from a few books ready for you to come with the pictures so I can compare.
As I mentioned it is my opinion it is a fake but like I also said it does look like they may have used genuine WWII parts, then someone tried to force a patina.

@Leebray

I do not see a difference in quality both look rather bad the difference is yours does not look like it was given a forced patina it actually looks natural though not well stored.
 
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