If a knife company knocked on your door...

S

SurpriseGoat

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Apr 28, 2011
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First of all let me say i have nothing but respect for anyone that can create a usable knife out of a chunk of steel. I consider myself also a craftsmen, but of wood not steel, and i mean no disrespect to anyone.

So, i wonder how do knife makers view their fellow makers that decide to work with one of the major knife companys. Would you be willing to give up control of something you designed and built for it to be mass produced with lesser materials and (perhaps) questionable quality? There are some pros and cons i believe...

pros: 1)money i assume! 2)recogition, as in getting your designs available to a larger group of buyers, some of whom may want to purchase a custom version. 3)building your own "brand".

Cons: 1)you lose control of the product and materials in the interest of production. 2)the knife will lose the "feel" or "touch" of a handmade knife, but your name is still on it. 3)You risk becoming only a designer, not a craftsmen(this could also be a pro i suppose!)

So what do you think? Do you hope/dream that someday a knife company calls you up and asks you to join their ranks? Or are you perfectly happy hand crafting knives one at a time that you know will have a little bit of you built into them?

Thanks guys and i hope for some insightful responses!
 
You are licensing your designs, so you have some control over the product. The thing is, you're not generally talking about a high-end production. If CRKT licenses a $700 folder from you, it'll turn into a production knife with an MSRP of ~70 bucks and a street price near half that. Knife guys don't expect custom quality work in a 35 dollar knife.

That aside, most of the collabs we see these days are very high quality for the cost and I'd not have any worries about production or quality, just about the royalties.
 
AcridSaint said:
That aside, most of the collabs we see these days are very high quality for the cost and I'd not have any worries about production or quality, just about the royalties.
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Yup, what he said. I think if the lawyers on both sides get the paperwork right, it would be a very good thing for a maker to team up with a reputable company. I'm no expert on the matter, but it seems when a known maker's design goes into production, demand and prices for their handmade stuff increases.

It didn't seem to hurt Jerry Busse or Bob Dozier when they hired skilled folks to help them make more knives in their own shops, either. They're both selling a lot of knives and have an excellent reputation for quality.
 
i have thought aobut this a few times and there aare only a few Co. that i woudl sell my design to. thats cause i know that they would do it right
 
If you design a knife for production, you design it around the company's capabilities.
I was showing some of my work to one of the largest production companies in the US. They had never seen a lever lock mechanism, and producing anything other than a coil spring powered automatic was out of the question for them.
Royalty money and name recognition is a good thing!
 
just watch your ass, learn about how licensing works, and hire a competent lawyer who specializes in this kind of thing.
 
In my experience - the knife world is generally filled with friendly, practical people. In the music industry, or in real-estate people commonly get screwed over royally by partners, employers, etc. -- but that sort of thing seems pretty uncommon in the knife world. People want to make a living doing what they are passionate about -- and that creates a pretty tightly bonded community of makers. If a production knife company abused that sense of community to screw a maker over, or used his name to push inferior products -- I think it would hurt them in the long run.

And again, the standards for brand-name production knife manufacturing are pretty high. Sure, there is flea market Chinese crap out there -- and I'm sure there is money to be made in that crap -- but that's an entirely different product. And even if someone really needed the money and wanted to sell their name -- I don't think the Pakistani sweatshop owners would pay for it in the first place...
 
Thanks for all the input guys!

Ken Onion is kind of the reason i started this thread. As i look over my collection i see six Ken Onion Design knives, and have plans to purchase many more. But for some reason, i have no desire to purchase a Ken Onion custom. I dont know what it is for sure, but i'm perfectly happy with my ZT's, and don't seem to want a custom made by the master himself.

On the other side of the coin are the companies that have built successful businesses without or with only limited collaborations. Manufacturers like Emerson, Chris Reeve, Busse, and maybe even Bark River? They have succeded in a difficult industry mainly on their own skill and capabilities, and have built up an almost mthyical status and "cult" like followings. They also seem to be asperational knives, as in most beginners to knife collecting dont start out owning one of their knives, but the collecting eventually leads us to them. Were those companies able to become what they are because they didnt do collaborations? A CRKT Emerson, Benchmade Chris Reeve, Sog Busse would i think have actually hurt their brand...

I think there is a difference between knife designer, and knife maker, even though knife designers also make knives. I guess the question is what would you aspire to become? Ken Onion? Jerry Busse? Or are they two seperate things entirely?



Just a observation, but knife designers knives seem to be thought of as less "hard use" than knife makers knives, though i'm sure in many cases thats just perception. I guess i see the knife makers designs seem to lean towards the pratical application and use of their products, while designers knives are more artful...
 
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Having one of your designs taken up for productions is an interesting experience. Since I wasn't doing it for the money (I was working on the understanding all royalties would go to an associated website), nor for the recognition (I am just a hobbyist and couldn't have handled more commissions anyway), you might not think there were any pros for me. However it is something I thoroughly enjoyed doing despite problems with the final product, it is still a source of pride.

I am a design engineer by profession, so thinking about design for manufacture is something I do all the time. Maybe that is why, when I think of my knife making, I think of design and not just craft. With the knife that was taken to production, I wish that I had been a little closer to the part of the project that tried to turn it into a production item. I don't necessarily agree that a knife will lose quality when the design is re-worked for production, it can happen, but what happened to me was that the production company replicated the quality of the hand-made knife so well that the final price was higher than a lot of people were prepared to pay for a "mere mass produced knife".

Quite a lot of people don't care if a car has hand stitched leather seats, walnut veneer dashboard and a 0-60 time of 4.6 seconds and they sure don't want to pay for them. As a designer it is quite interesting and satisfying if you are able to translate the essence of your design, the shape, balance, feel and functionality into something that can be enjoyed by more people.

Production companies have access, if only because of scale, too many processes which are simply out of reach for the average sole craftsman. Think of the MIM blades on the Kershaw Offset, or the use of PVD coatings and 3d cnc milled handles.

If I had a design worth the interest of a production company, I can't think of any reasons not to try a collaboration. Of course, you do need the right company, and you do need to have your agreements written up properly, especially if knife making is your occupation and not just a pastime.

Looking forward reading more here. :D
 
Having seen several Hawk production and prototype knives, I don't see people having to design around Kershaw's manufacturing processes.
 
Almost any maker would benefit from a collaboration-if the production knife sells.
I know from experience that having your name plastered on 20K nice knives is great advertisement.
 
If a knife company knocked on my door I'd do my best to direct them to the correct door, because they surely have no business talking to me.
 
The "knife company" MAKES MONEY. I MAKE KNIVES(hopefully). That does not intersect IMO. I will be embarrased if they will sell crap with my name on it.They can not make knives my way because they MAKE MONEY.

So... I make knives and do not make money. They make "tools and utencils" and make money. Amen.
 
SurpriseGoat said:
On the other side of the coin are the companies that have built successful businesses without or with only limited collaborations. Manufacturers like Emerson, Chris Reeve, Busse, and maybe even Bark River? They have succeded in a difficult industry mainly on their own skill and capabilities, and have built up an almost mthyical status and "cult" like followings. They also seem to be asperational knives, as in most beginners to knife collecting dont start out owning one of their knives, but the collecting eventually leads us to them. Were those companies able to become what they are because they didnt do collaborations? A CRKT Emerson, Benchmade Chris Reeve, Sog Busse would i think have actually hurt their brand...
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Emerson started out as a custom maker, then did a collaboration with benchmade before the production knives as we know them. so they've sort of gone through the process, and out the other side. he also a collaboration with gerber a few years back (the "gerber-emerson alliance")
Chris reeve has done a collaboration with gerber (the LHR), and at one point there was a planned production sebenza by CRKT (with a plastic framelock or somesuch madness :eek:) but it never went past prototype stage, probably with good reason.
 
I would recommend talking to other makers who have collaborations and get there input before deciding. I would also read that contract 100 times and make sure you understand exactly what you are getting yourself into. I know of several makers with collabs that are unhappy and have allowed themselves to get screwed . Be careful !!! It is a great gig if you are savvy enough to protect yourself and align yourself with a company that will do your products justice . Never assume a damn thing , get it in writing !
 
The knife industry just like other industries has it's fare share of sharks . It is very common to get a bad deal disguised as a great opportunity . Remember , 10% of nothing is nothing . Know what you are getting yourself into , don't assume the waters are calm and make sure it is in writing and easily understood. Communicate with others who have collabs and cover your ass .
 
I think Benchmade was at my house the other day, a couple of young guys in dress shirts and ties... before they could corrupt me with their corporate ways I kindly told them I wasn't interested in the millions of dollars, hot babes and other things that would come with a big knife contract. They must have not known what to say because they just left.

I knew it was them because all they could do was stare at the big knife I was holding when I opened the door. I hope they didn't swipe the design.
 
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