If/when Buck moves production models from China back to the USA

pinnah said:
I also worry that the China produced "420HC" might be diluting the reputation of Buck's Bos treated US 420HC? While I understand that 420HC is recipe, not a product name, I think Buck has done an excellent and well deserved reputation around it's Bos treated 420HC as being something special. Lacking the Bos heat treat branding, I fear that Buck is in something of a double bind. Do they say the non-Bos heat treat is just as good as the US Bos heat treated 420HC? Or do they say it's a half-step less good than Bos treated 420HC.
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For the sake of discussion and I don't know the true answer.... but "BOS" heat treatment is just a process, Buck trademarked the name, but Paul Bos does not personally heat treat the knives, just developed the processes used. He is now [semi] retired and the "torch" has been passed...... Do you have any evidence that Buck doesn't specify the same heat treatment process to be used on their non domestic knives with 420HC steel.... I believe the quoted Rockwell value is the same.... 58.
 
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DeSotoSky said:
For the sake of discussion and I don't know the true answer.... but "BOS" heat treatment is just a process, Buck trademarked the name, but Paul Bos does not personally heat treat the knives, just developed the processes used. He is now retired and the "torch" has been passed...... Do you have any evidence that Buck doesn't specify the same heat treatment process to be used on their non domestic knives with 420HC steel.... I believe the quoted Rockwell value is the same.... 58.
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Sometimes Buck doesn't label their imports with the BOS stamp on their websites, which would lead me to believe the process is not the same. If the Bos treat had no value, why label knives with it at all? Is it just marketing hype? Theoretically, a heat treat, even at the same HRC, could be better than another. I have seen some Buck copy somewhere that read the heat treat process at the BOS facility was proprietary. If so, there could be some cryo treatment going on that increases martensite, or some other magic we are unaware of. Cutting out these processes would be one way to reduce cost and keep everything else looking good, including HRC specs, although blade performance may be reduced. It's also possible that they use the same exact process across the pond, and the only cost reduction comes in the form of labor. Who knows. What I do know is what I am getting with a US made Buck, and there aren't these kinds of questions, so I'm all too happy to spend the little extra. At one point, on the rivers site, the 301 was actually less that the 371. Usually they are only a couple dollars apart, though the spread is larger at the moment. If I am going to get a chinese product it will more likely be from Spyderco or some other brand who don't have domestic alternatives at low price points. Just my 2 cents.
 
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Wramo said:
Sometimes Buck doesn't label their imports with the BOS stamp on their websites, which would lead me to believe the process is not the same. QUOTE]

Well, they don't label all their domestic products with a BOS stamp either...... so what.....
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DeSotoSky said:
Wramo said:
Sometimes Buck doesn't label their imports with the BOS stamp on their websites, which would lead me to believe the process is not the same. QUOTE]

Well, they don't label all their domestic products with a BOS stamp either...... so what.....
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I was not aware of any domestic product with 420hc that was not labeled with the BOS symbol on Bucks website. And as for "so what", it seems you asked for evidence, and some imported knives not being labeled may be evidence, however inconsequential or inconclusive. Though I notice that most knives with 420hc, imported or not, are labeled with the Bos heat treat.
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FWIW I found this digging back. I do not know if things have changed since 2009.

Bill Keys said:
The steel for the China pocket knives comes from China. We have used 440A and a 420HC type of steel. As for heat treat, we have not necessarily instructed them in precisely how we heat treat, but we have specified certain temperatures and our engineering and new products groups visit to review produciton processing and review quality requirements.

Bill Keys
Director Manufacturing and Engineering
Buck Knives, Inc.
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EDIT: original thread: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/683332-China-knife-steel-origin
 
Wramo said:
FWIW I found this digging back. I do not know if things have changed since 2009.
EDIT: original thread: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/683332-China-knife-steel-origin
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Good Job. So that is the answer, Chinabucks do not receive the same quality of heat treatment.

Makes sense if Bucks heat treating methods developed by Paul Bose are a trade secret. What a lot of American Companies are learning is that when you move manufacturing to China they learn all your manufacturing methods and specifications. They do not have to do their own R&D.... Intellectual theft and you have trained your future competitor.
 
DeSotoSky said:
Good Job. So that is the answer, Chinabucks do not receive the same quality of heat treatment.

Makes sense if Bucks heat treating methods developed by Paul Bose are a trade secret. What a lot of American Companies are learning is that when you move manufacturing to China they learn all your manufacturing methods and specifications. They do not have to do their own R&D.... Intellectual theft and you have trained your future competitor.
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That would be my understanding as well.
 
DeSotoSky said:
For the sake of discussion and I don't know the true answer.... but "BOS" heat treatment is just a process, Buck trademarked the name, but Paul Bos does not personally heat treat the knives, just developed the processes used. He is now [semi] retired and the "torch" has been passed.......
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Who is Paul Farner? DM
 
Wramo said:
DeSotoSky said:
I was not aware of any domestic product with 420hc that was not labeled with the BOS symbol on Bucks website. And as for "so what", it seems you asked for evidence, and some imported knives not being labeled may be evidence, however inconsequential or inconclusive. Though I notice that most knives with 420hc, imported or not, are labeled with the Bos heat treat.
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My two Buck 110's (one a 50th Anniversary) 301, and 877 (white handle Walmart exclusive, made in USA) do not have the BOS stamp. All have 420HC blades.
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