Illinois weapons charges? Ridiculous situation

[AlexSchira]

I've always kept under the 3' limit the state has, always small enough that even out in the open they never draw much attention even in Chicago crowds. Friends of mine out in the suburbs sometimes have 4' folders or the like on them because they never read the law closely, but none have ever had issues with the law about it. I'm the only person I know who EDCs small fixed blades, everyone else only owns larger blades for fishing, maybe a Ka-Bar laying around a house or two.

Well, a relative of a coworker I'm close with recently brought to my attention his...habits. I really thought he was joking or just trying to talk it up because he saw me use a Victoninox on a food package, but it turns out this kid (not eighteen, guessing late high school) is walking around with (count them) a four inch folder, a throwing knife (double edged, sometimes more than one), and...I can't make this up, I laughed at first until I saw it, a large Bowie knockoff behind his back hidden under a jacket occasionally. I'm sadly serious. His relative sighed to me later that when he umpires at baseball games on the side, he had throwing knives hidden in the pads 'just in case a coach acted up'. He's been told about the laws repeatedly, ignores it, tends to whip them all out at parties whether he's throwing or hacking at things, as I saw at a gathering later.

Pyschological issues and lost faith in humanity aside...I need to count all this off to try and level his thinking a bit the next time I see the kid, and just for my own curiosity in how ridiculous this is. I'll try passing this off to the family so they can see the issues, but I'm not exactly faithful for the situation. Factors that probably collect charges..
-Underage, hopefully not carrying in high school
-Employed at a fast food restaurant/baseball umpire, not a working trade
-Four inch folder, rarely enforced but still over the limit
-Double edges on the throwing knives, which themselves are illegal
-The Bowie alone is a handcuff coupon
-All carried at once, even a laid pack LEO would assume intent with all this
-The fact the kid talks it up enough that people know, constantly advertising them may edge into intimidation or threat territory
-I'm assured he keeps more in the car. Wonderful.

The worst situations I've heard of just meant a court trip, minor fines before getting the record wiped, but that was for a larger folder or at worst a hunting knife in a car. This kid is an abnormal situation that makes me worry for the next officer to pull him over, let alone if he's stupid enough to get in serious trouble. I won't bother asking what the heck is going on in that household, but I do want to give the family a list of everything that will happen after a pocket search. My coworker is casually concerned, but it never crossed her mind about the legal side of these quirks.

 

[Cash427]

Sounds like you have a mall ninja on the loose up there! Things like that give carrying knives a bad name. Not sure what he's going to do with throwing knives for defense..........Ninja skills would have to be strong for that one!

 

[nu3gawhat]

If he is aware of the law, all you should tell him to move to a freer state, where carrying what he does wont be an issue.

 

[Josh K]

Quietly sneak up behind him and yell "Gecko45."

If he whirls around wearing an expression of shock we have solved the mystery. If not, I suggest taking him for a tour of the local police station. That's just dumb.

 

[Watchful]

There is a worried tone in your post that I picked up on right away. It basically sounds like "this kid ain't right."

My prediction: you can talk to him all you want, and instead of him saying "Wow, you're right...I better lose the hardware," you'll only empower him. See, he'll think, I *can* scare people with this stuff.

The reason this bugs you isn't the quantity of hardware, but the fact he has it at all. In case a coach acts up[/u]? You know that's not normal threat analysis; the kid has a paranoid psychological issues that's going to get him shot or killed. Like you said, what happens when he gets pulled over?

I'm not saying blow a whistle on this kid (I'm not the type to freak out), but somebody needs to do something fast to get this kid some help. Simply explaining the law? Won't work. Makes things worse. He's got a flair for the dramatic and he's living in some fantasy world and you'd be playing a key character in it. Time for him to get out of it. I hate to say, but you may not be that guy best qualified to help him.

 

[joe-bob]

Maybe call child protective servies?

 

[nu3gawhat]

Maybe call child protective servies?

Never call them unless absolutely desperate. As in, they are abusing their children to the point in which they need to seek medical treatment. They can really tear apart families and make the situation worse.

 

[Benjamin Liu]

The ridiculous situation is the Illinois laws, passed by a corrupt government not even worthy of supervising a school playground much less running a state that is supposed to be free.

As for this kid, he might be a nut. He also might be someone interested in knives and martial arts and just needs some direction. If that is the case the right dojo can shape him up. For the knives, maybe recommend Ron Hood's videos, and he might be out working on building shelters and other survival skills.

I don't see anything wrong with a teenager owning any of those items. When I was a kid in Southern Illinois I had a Marlin Model 60 at 11, and I was late in getting a gun compared to my neighbors who had shotguns when they were 9 or 10 and went around the woods hunting by themselves. They also had Buck Specials and Generals, which are probably better than what this kid has.

The showing off part is stupid. IMO that behavior is most often for attention rather than intimindation.

 

[glistam]

It seems like the kid is fantasizing a lot. Being a shrink by education, I'm going to take this in a different direction. He sounds hypervigilant. Most people don't imagine a coach at a baseball game getting so violent that someone's life is in danger and he has to be killed. (don't whine that "it happens," yes it may, but it's absurdly unlikely)

I've worked with a few kids like this, about his age, who arm themselves in somewhat nonsensical ways and like to show off, and they all had something in common: Either they were abused or someone outside their family hurt/scared them badly. Deep down, they are afraid of being hurt again. They don't want to let it happen again; carrying the weaponry makes them feel safe, and showing off keeps others at a distance as a "preventive measure." They get the reputation as the "crazy kid with the arsenal of knives," and they think that will keep anyone from trying anything on them.

I can't say much else but it seems like the poor kid has had his perception skewed badly. I don't have a perfect solution and the information I'm going on is limited. Some of these kids get over it with age, or when they start to feel accepted by a group of friends that sets a better example. Sometimes some therapy is in order but that really depends on the backstory and other matters.

 

[AlexSchira]

Regarding the abnormal situation, I'm not qualified, educated, or trained in the matter. Most I'll do is figure out the violations being comitted and hand off a list of what kind of charges are waiting for him. My angle is 'I know knives, and about his toys...' I know there are issues, but most I can do is say what I can find out about the blade violations.

I was trying to be mature...but I did at one point tell his relative about the mall ninja title.

 

[Watchful]

The ridiculous situation is the Illinois laws, passed by a corrupt government not even worthy of supervising a school playground much less running a state that is supposed to be free.

Carrying multiple throwing knives and a large bowie *and* a folding knife is a ridiculous example of Illinois law? That's giving the kid a free pass he doesn't deserve. In what states is a heavily armed minor a good idea?

He also might be someone interested in knives and martial arts and just needs some direction.

He needs direction, but would you bet that he's just interested in knives? He's taking this way beyond hobby into threatening behavior. I would not ignore predatory warning signs, even if the kid is only 17 or so.

I don't see anything wrong with a teenager owning any of those items. When I was a kid in Southern Illinois I had a Marlin Model 60 at 11, and I was late in getting a gun compared to my neighbors who had shotguns when they were 9 or 10 and went around the woods hunting by themselves. They also had Buck Specials and Generals, which are probably better than what this kid has.

I sure don't disagree (jeez, the knives I collected at 16!), but did you go carrying 3 or 4 weapons around with you from day to day, including wielding that Model 60 to a ballpark because a coach might get in your face? I doubt it.

IMO that behavior is most often for attention rather than intimindation.

Now you and I are in total agreement. I think the kid is either incredibly stupid and need of a careful reality check, or he's living in a Hollywood fantasy. Either way, his personally large walking arsenal is at best inappropriate and at worst a recipe for tragedy: at his still tender age, he needs to start thinking about females and college, not about killing coaches.

 

[Benjamin Liu]

Carrying multiple throwing knives and a large bowie *and* a folding knife is a ridiculous example of Illinois law?

Illinois knife laws are wrong. They apply to everyone regardless of age or mental status, not just problem teenagers.

Throwing knives are not weapons in most cases. They are sporting equipment. With very few exceptions, they would be next to worthless as defensive or offensive thrown weapons. Then there is the part about having the skill to use them once you have a quality throwing knife. I'd file that in the category of people who choose to defend their homes with BB guns instead of firearms or carry a "rape whistle" or personal alarm- really stupid and unrealistic methods of self-protection.

That's giving the kid a free pass he doesn't deserve. In what states is a heavily armed minor a good idea?

I don't see this as an age thing. Some kids can carry weapons and not be a problem, and some adults are idiots who are dangerous no mater how old they are.

He needs direction, but would you bet that he's just interested in knives? He's taking this way beyond hobby into threatening behavior. I would not ignore predatory warning signs, even if the kid is only 17 or so.

None of us know this kid, so I really can't say what is really going on.

He might have some issues that need to be dealt with.

If he is threatening people with his knives, the problem is that he is threatening people, not that he has knives.

The thing is, in almost all cases I've seen with people I know with kids and knives being a problem, the "problems" just turned out to by hysteria from sheeple. They'd see one kid showing another a knife and then sensationalize what they saw, or find out that a kid has a knife and make up all sorts of possible bad scenarios and then act as if they really happened.

I did have one classmate who did have problems and also had a lot of knives and even a few swords (back in the 1980s when few people had them) but his problems did not come from his cutlery collection. He was one of those guys who blurred the distinction between his D&D game and reality, but I suspect it had little to do with the game either.

17 is almost an adult, I was already in college, had a lot of knives including an original CS Tanto and Urban Pal, had a Browning Hi-Power and combat pistol training at 17.

I sure don't disagree (jeez, the knives I collected at 16!), but did you go carrying 3 or 4 weapons around with you from day to day, including wielding that Model 60 to a ballpark because a coach might get in your face? I doubt it.

Obviously not. My question would be whether he really threatened him or not. If he did threaten him (even if it was telling another person and not the coach directly) then he has serious problems. It isn't the knives, it is his mindset. If he was just joking around, then he needs to grow up. If he was serious, he would need professional help.

 

[AlexSchira]

I was originally just shooting for knife law details and info on what he'd be charged with...but some of this is actually pretty fascinating to analyze with what I remember from high school psych, I bantered a bit with myself about the kid. Glistam, your analysis is in the ten ring. He's a mix of 'look at this!', constantly listing off facts and achievements, scholarships and titles, he'll ask questions and explain the answer if you don't know them. An intellectual of that nature obviously hasn't had an easy time growing up in the American school system, the family being stable I'm guessing we have bullying scars. His displays (...including throwing knives at targets near distracted people for shock value) are a mix of fear play, and I believe 'imaginary audience' in that he's grabbing the spotlight from no one. I keep sighing 'narcissist' about him, but my psych background is a semester of high school.

Keeping it on topic with the forum despite this interesting detail analysis coming up and reasonable debates, I still am curious about the knife laws of the case. From a legal point of view, imagine the field day a prosecutor could have if he ever even drew one for intimidation, with obvious intent and redundancy. On a more casual level, I'm familiar with how LE handle knives during searches and how they can play into charges...But that's when you're booking a guy with a Buck in his back pocket or a box cutter after work, I'm drawing a blank on what happens when you have dedicated weapons. I just asked a friend and LEO from a notably on-the-ball department in the area.
"A Rambo special? Unless he's camping, or has it on private property in a yard, that's a deadly concealed weapon charge I'd slap onto another issue."
"...And a folder that's an inch past the limit, and at least one throwing knife. Possibly more, and some hidden in his vehicle."
"...I'll figure that out after we have him in the tank, you have got to be kidding me."
There really isn't any serious legislation beyond banning specific exotic weapons, whereas with firearms you can get charged for multiple violations such as buying, carrying, using, and concealing. With blades, it's usually slapped onto another charge. But when the suspect is...armed to the teeth, it sets off red flags and encourages an officer to remove the suspect from the population for the time being. This cop I talked to would just get the kid off the street in case he was preparing for something specific with all that. As for how to charge him and process this...He had no idea, but it's a mild weapons charge by default.

 

[Benjamin Liu]

His displays (...including throwing knives at targets near distracted people for shock value)

You didn't mention that part in the first post, that is more than just showing off, it is violating safety rules which apply to thrown projectiles just as they do to guns.

While throwing knives are not good weapons, they can cause serious injury like putting an eye out.

Shocking or scaring the wrong person is also a good way to get shot. While Illinois violates the RKBA, there still are people who ignore those laws, and assuming that no one is carrying a gun because it is illegal is not a good idea.

 

[nu3gawhat]

This cop I talked to would just get the kid off the street in case he was preparing for something specific with all that.

I doesn't seem to me that he's preparing to do anything with them, besides showing off and possibly self-defense. This seems like his EDC if you will.

 

[glistam]

Sorry about the psych profile tangent, I think I misunderstood your original post. Though I didn't want to dismiss him as kook, because often alienation only makes this behavior worse.

First, there is state law and there is city law (I think you said you are in Chicago?). Chicago naturally fits within the state law and imposes tighter restriction.

State law is under Illinois Criminal Code 720 ILCS 5/24 and 720 ILCS 5/33A. I'll sum up because these two statutes are confusing:

24-1 bans "throwing stars" by name from even mere possession, but not throwing knives per se. However, the throwing knife is a "dagger" because of it's double edge.

Both the 4" folder and the bowie are "knife over 3 inches," however it is a common misunderstanding that the law makes them illegal to carry outright. 33A only makes a violent crime more serious if the person possessed either of these during it. You heard right, there technically is NO ban on over 3" inch knives, folder or fixed.

However, under 24-1, a dagger and indeed ANY knife can be illegal if "Carried or possessed with intent to use the same unlawfully against another." My concern is a high-school age kid carrying all this hardware is very likely to meet this burden of intent (self-defense is NOT a legal defense). And judging by the statements he's likely to say ("I keep this throwing knife in case a coach acts up"), he'll be screwed. The charge is a Class A misdemeanor, the highest type, and is punishable by up to 364 days in jail and a fine of $2500.

That doesn't even begin to cover the disorderly conduct charges he is baiting by showing off (behavior that alarms people), and if he throws his knife in an unsafe way near people and they feel threatened by him, that could even be aggravated assault, which is a felony.

For Chicago, the carry law get's tougher. The law is under Municipal Code of Chicago, 8-24-020.

In short, 18 and under (yes, you read that right) cannot possess a knife with a blade over 2 inches long. And over 18 cannot carry any knife over 2.5 inches. That's nuts, but it's Chicago. Sentence can be up 6 months and/or $200.

Making him aware of the illegality and even showing him the statutes may talk some sense into him. Or it may not, you're in a better position to know that.

 

[Watchful]

Throwing knives are not weapons in most cases. They are sporting equipment. With very few exceptions, they would be next to worthless as defensive or offensive thrown weapons.

But he's carrying them as weapons, to intimidate. Under intent laws of *all* states, those are weapons.

The rest of your post, I don't disagree with. :thumbup: Please don't think I'm sparring with you!

However, under 24-1, a dagger and indeed ANY knife can be illegal if "Carried or possessed with intent to use the same unlawfully against another." My concern is a high-school age kid carrying all this hardware is very likely to meet this burden of intent (self-defense is NOT a legal defense).

And there it is. If this kid was walking around with a screwdriver in his pocket--with the goal of stabbing someone who gets up in his face--he's breaking the law. And that's true pretty much everywhere, not just Illinois.

 

[AlexSchira]

Thankfully it's stayed with friends and family so far, no one reported the umpire incidents. Ironically and coincidentally, I'm told by my coworker he's in charge of the payroll for student umpires. Head shaking aside, that would be the red flag that sets all this off. This takes place in the suburbs, avoiding Chicago specific legislation pending he doesn't take a road trip. Peace officers are pretty tame about seeing a pocket clip, but all of this was belt-mounted under a shirt or jacket, attempt to conceal.

That charge if some one reports the subtle threat is definitely worth noting to the parents, pending they believe he said that, I'll leave this with the coworker as she was the witness. As for more mundane issues that could come up, a vehicle search after a party would turn up whatever he can't carry on him. Every cop I've talked to didn't play along with a bat under the seat, "You better have a ball and glove", I'm assuming there'll be more flea market arsenal inside the car. It's his own car, I can only imagine how elaborate it gets.

 

[TOM1960]

Sounds like this kid needs some serious intervention from family and friends before he does something stupid and ruins his whole life. At 17, he can be charged as an adult for a serious crime such as attempted murder if he used one of those knives in a fight (outside of a true self-defense action). Pulling out knives at parties where I assume that plenty of underage drinking is occurring? Pure stupidity! When alcoholic beverages are served in my home, my firearms and hunting knives remain securely under lock and key. The only blades within reach are my kitchen knives. Hopefully, this is a phase in his life that he will quickly outgrow. Keep your fingers crossed!

 

[GWashington1732]

Wow, just wow. Throwing knives, bowie knives, and a four inch folder, as an EDC? He might not really be as screwed up as you think though, probably just wants the attention. He's like those kids who cut themselves and run and brag about it. Or, maybe he really is that screwed up. in either case, keep your distance, because if he is as messed up as you think, you don't want to be anywhere near him when he pops.