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IM going to help MIKE TURBER prove his POINT!!!
- Thread starter Allen Blade
- Start date
Cougar Allen
Buccaneer (ret.)
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Cliff Stamp already did some roof-cutting tests with a variety of knives, as reported on the forums and on his website http://www.physics.mun.ca:80/~sstamp/knives/reviews.html but as far as I recall he didn't do any timing, and anyway duplicating tests is always informative (not to mention fun).
As you may recall, the pictures Mad Dog posted showed the knives being hammered with sticks. Cliff used the spine of another knife instead, which made dings several thousands of an inch deep in the spine of the TUSK. Cliff called them tiny and Mad Dog called them large, but they agreed about the measurements.... Later Cliff did some wood chopping tests and that was when the TUSK broke. Mad Dog attributed the breakage to microfractures caused by hammering the spine with the spine of another knife instead of a stick, which he termed abusive.
If you really want to duplicate Cliff's tests hammer your knife with the spine of another knife and after you've finished that test try chopping and splitting hardwood and see if that breaks your knife.
I already have an opinion on whether it will, but it's always good to test things empirically.
See Cliff's website for details -- he is meticulous about reporting his test methods in detail, and if any detail isn't clear I'm sure he'll answer questions.
Sometimes trying to get people to post in the appropriate forum seems like a lost cause.... This belongs in the Reviews & Testing Forum. Many people who are interested and have something to contribute won't see it here in this forum.
As you may recall, the pictures Mad Dog posted showed the knives being hammered with sticks. Cliff used the spine of another knife instead, which made dings several thousands of an inch deep in the spine of the TUSK. Cliff called them tiny and Mad Dog called them large, but they agreed about the measurements.... Later Cliff did some wood chopping tests and that was when the TUSK broke. Mad Dog attributed the breakage to microfractures caused by hammering the spine with the spine of another knife instead of a stick, which he termed abusive.
If you really want to duplicate Cliff's tests hammer your knife with the spine of another knife and after you've finished that test try chopping and splitting hardwood and see if that breaks your knife.
I already have an opinion on whether it will, but it's always good to test things empirically.
See Cliff's website for details -- he is meticulous about reporting his test methods in detail, and if any detail isn't clear I'm sure he'll answer questions.
Sometimes trying to get people to post in the appropriate forum seems like a lost cause.... This belongs in the Reviews & Testing Forum. Many people who are interested and have something to contribute won't see it here in this forum.
Allen Blade
BANNED
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Hello,
Hey Cougar ,,,good idea!!,,i`ll have to try that too,,hehe!! I have an idea on how it will perform to,(cause i have already done it before)
Stay tuned for the WREKING YARD performance VIDEO!!
Take Care, Allen
PS. The topic can be moved if itds in an Inaproppriate Place. Sorry for the Miss Post in the wrong Forum Area if thats what i did ( Bad,Allen BAD!!)
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Allen Blade
Spokane,WA USA
" It is Always Better to learn The RIGHT Way, Than to Continue Doing it WRONG "
My Custom Knives :
http://www.geocities.com/yosemite/meadows/1770/allenblade.html
Hey Cougar ,,,good idea!!,,i`ll have to try that too,,hehe!! I have an idea on how it will perform to,(cause i have already done it before)
Stay tuned for the WREKING YARD performance VIDEO!!
Take Care, Allen
PS. The topic can be moved if itds in an Inaproppriate Place. Sorry for the Miss Post in the wrong Forum Area if thats what i did ( Bad,Allen BAD!!)
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Allen Blade
Spokane,WA USA
" It is Always Better to learn The RIGHT Way, Than to Continue Doing it WRONG "
My Custom Knives :
http://www.geocities.com/yosemite/meadows/1770/allenblade.html
Allen, you should have no problems cuting through a car roof with no damage to your blades. About 10 years ago, Ted Frizzell of Mineral Mountain Hatchet Works cut through 55 gallon steel drums to test how tough his 5160 blades were. They suffered no damage and IMO the drums are of thicker steel than a car roof.
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Cool test Allen. I will also try to perform a similar test on this coast.
Eddie are you reading this?
Anyone else nearby want to come watch?
Anyone know what kind of car was in the test Mad Dog used? Maybe we should look for Volvos!
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Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
CLICK ON THE LINK BELOW RIGHT NOW! YOU WILL BE GLAD YOU DID!
www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/001202.html
Eddie are you reading this?
Anyone else nearby want to come watch?
Anyone know what kind of car was in the test Mad Dog used? Maybe we should look for Volvos!
------------------
Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
CLICK ON THE LINK BELOW RIGHT NOW! YOU WILL BE GLAD YOU DID!
www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/001202.html
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Go Allen, go Allen!!D)D)D)D)
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Shawn R Sullivan
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Shawn R Sullivan
Allen Blade
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Howdy,
I think im going to paint My test car white and put a BENZ emblem on it for effect........LMFAO!!!
I have already Procured 2 Video Taping Devices, as Stated it was a good idea to do in a previous post,,one for Panoramic View and the other Close in.
KEVLAR helmet for BRIAN so he doesnt undergo laceration complications ,,LMAO!! (just kidding)
David for fun you should try one of those
Cold Steel Rifleman hawks you have,,they should do it fine. ( stop by Mon/Tue we will do the Kydex for them)
But for mine i want to stay in the original test Criteria Range of 7 inch Blade.
See ya,,,,,,,Allen
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Allen Blade
Spokane,WA USA
" It is Always Better to learn The RIGHT Way, Than to Continue Doing it WRONG "
My Custom Knives :
http://www.geocities.com/yosemite/meadows/1770/allenblade.html
I think im going to paint My test car white and put a BENZ emblem on it for effect........LMFAO!!!
I have already Procured 2 Video Taping Devices, as Stated it was a good idea to do in a previous post,,one for Panoramic View and the other Close in.
KEVLAR helmet for BRIAN so he doesnt undergo laceration complications ,,LMAO!! (just kidding)
David for fun you should try one of those
Cold Steel Rifleman hawks you have,,they should do it fine. ( stop by Mon/Tue we will do the Kydex for them)
But for mine i want to stay in the original test Criteria Range of 7 inch Blade.
See ya,,,,,,,Allen
------------------
Allen Blade
Spokane,WA USA
" It is Always Better to learn The RIGHT Way, Than to Continue Doing it WRONG "
My Custom Knives :
http://www.geocities.com/yosemite/meadows/1770/allenblade.html
- Joined
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- Messages
- 1,647
Allen, if this is going to become more "comparative", such as testing several different knives, etc., please let me know. I have an older Buck Special and an earlier Cold Steel Recon Tanto that have been taking up some space. I can send up for you to chop and hack away with to see how different steels compare. Let me know here or drop me a line via e-mail if you want me to send them out.
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Don LeHue
The pen is mightier than the sword...outside of arm's reach. Modify radius accordingly for rifle.
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Don LeHue
The pen is mightier than the sword...outside of arm's reach. Modify radius accordingly for rifle.
- Joined
- Oct 2, 1998
- Messages
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I would bet good money on the Cold Steel Recon Tanto! Lynn may be as full of Hype as Mad Dog is, but he sure as hell does not charge $355!
I love the Recon Tanto and Cold Steel rules the <$100 market!
Man I got to go to sleep earlier
------------------
Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
CLICK ON THE LINK BELOW RIGHT NOW! YOU WILL BE GLAD YOU DID!
www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/001202.html
[This message has been edited by Mike Turber (edited 01-31-2000).]
I love the Recon Tanto and Cold Steel rules the <$100 market!
Man I got to go to sleep earlier
------------------
Best Regards,
Mike Turber
BladeForums Site Owner and Administrator
Do it! Do it right! Do it right NOW!
CLICK ON THE LINK BELOW RIGHT NOW! YOU WILL BE GLAD YOU DID!
www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/001202.html
[This message has been edited by Mike Turber (edited 01-31-2000).]
Cliff Stamp
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Cougar :
When I first did this, I used a wooden club. It then struck me that odds are that I am not going to go out and carve up a club if such an incident happened so that was foolish. I then reasoned that what I would hit the knife with was mostly likely a lugwrench or something similar so I used one of the other knives I had with me (I rarely do any stress testing on one blade alone it can lead to gross errors in conclusions). As of late I have altered my method somewhat, since there was such an upcry about me hitting the TUSK with a "metallic object" I use a club now and then do the rest of the harder stress tests. I then go back and repeat the car cutting bringing along something harder to whack the blades with and repeat the harder stress tests again. As of yet I have not seen that induce a failure which is not surprising.
As for making sure its the same type of car etc., that is being a little absurd. That would only be necesary if Kevin had stated that his results were only relevant for that particular car, which would obviously be of little use. Making this restriction would be akin to asking someone to take a piece of spruce from the same tree that Mike used if you wanted to duplicate his chopping tests.
In any case, car roofs and such are made of mild steel now. This is very easy to cut through. If you have a blade with a strong point presentation like a khukuri you don't need a hammer, the khukuri will go through the roof quite easily. In general as for what it proves that a blade can do this, I no longer use it an indication of strength/durability as the stress level is too low and it does not induce failure even on low quality blades (Ontarios). So basically if you use this to "prove" the quality of your blades you are saying that the performance level is about that of a $50 production blade. I don't think that is much of a positive statement.
What do I use then? Currently a combination of digging, and controlled impacts on harder metals to guage edge durability and toughness. As a final step I will do prolonged full force high impact chopping on hardwoods (several sessions of about 1-2 hours, which is about 7500 chops give or take). This is done after a blade has passed all other work stresses as it can break blades apart badly. While it might seem like a mild stress because it is only wood, the impacts are very large due to the velocities involved, the chopping method used (high energy and strong follow through to break the wood if the cut is not completed) and the structure of the wood which is dead (for hardness) small diameter (to increase localization of force) branches.
-Cliff
[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 01-31-2000).]
When I first did this, I used a wooden club. It then struck me that odds are that I am not going to go out and carve up a club if such an incident happened so that was foolish. I then reasoned that what I would hit the knife with was mostly likely a lugwrench or something similar so I used one of the other knives I had with me (I rarely do any stress testing on one blade alone it can lead to gross errors in conclusions). As of late I have altered my method somewhat, since there was such an upcry about me hitting the TUSK with a "metallic object" I use a club now and then do the rest of the harder stress tests. I then go back and repeat the car cutting bringing along something harder to whack the blades with and repeat the harder stress tests again. As of yet I have not seen that induce a failure which is not surprising.
As for making sure its the same type of car etc., that is being a little absurd. That would only be necesary if Kevin had stated that his results were only relevant for that particular car, which would obviously be of little use. Making this restriction would be akin to asking someone to take a piece of spruce from the same tree that Mike used if you wanted to duplicate his chopping tests.
In any case, car roofs and such are made of mild steel now. This is very easy to cut through. If you have a blade with a strong point presentation like a khukuri you don't need a hammer, the khukuri will go through the roof quite easily. In general as for what it proves that a blade can do this, I no longer use it an indication of strength/durability as the stress level is too low and it does not induce failure even on low quality blades (Ontarios). So basically if you use this to "prove" the quality of your blades you are saying that the performance level is about that of a $50 production blade. I don't think that is much of a positive statement.
What do I use then? Currently a combination of digging, and controlled impacts on harder metals to guage edge durability and toughness. As a final step I will do prolonged full force high impact chopping on hardwoods (several sessions of about 1-2 hours, which is about 7500 chops give or take). This is done after a blade has passed all other work stresses as it can break blades apart badly. While it might seem like a mild stress because it is only wood, the impacts are very large due to the velocities involved, the chopping method used (high energy and strong follow through to break the wood if the cut is not completed) and the structure of the wood which is dead (for hardness) small diameter (to increase localization of force) branches.
-Cliff
[This message has been edited by Cliff Stamp (edited 01-31-2000).]
Brian_T
Gold Member
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- Oct 7, 1999
- Messages
- 1,767
Cliff, Mike, and Allen:
Is this a private party or can anyone bring a "dance partner?"
I've got a Strider Model WB that I'd like to see tested by one or all of you. I know that Cliff is planning a review of the Strider Model PAB as soon as he gets it and I tried to get together with Mike last November to do some testing with the Strider but never got over to see him.
If anyone else would like to see a Strider knife in action, let me know.
Cliff, Mike, and Allen, if any of you would like to include the Strider in your tests, just contact me at brianthornburg@home.com and let me know where to send it.
Thanks in advance,
Brian_T
brianthornburg@home.com
Is this a private party or can anyone bring a "dance partner?"
I've got a Strider Model WB that I'd like to see tested by one or all of you. I know that Cliff is planning a review of the Strider Model PAB as soon as he gets it and I tried to get together with Mike last November to do some testing with the Strider but never got over to see him.
If anyone else would like to see a Strider knife in action, let me know.
Cliff, Mike, and Allen, if any of you would like to include the Strider in your tests, just contact me at brianthornburg@home.com and let me know where to send it.
Thanks in advance,
Brian_T
brianthornburg@home.com
Cougar Allen
Buccaneer (ret.)
- Joined
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I have taken to hammering things with the spine of the blade instead of the pommel, and haven't damaged a knife that way yet....
It's interesting that Cliff says the test that's most likely to shatter a knife is vigorous chopping at hard wood (and if anybody knows, it's him....) That sheds some light on the validity of all these other toughness tests we see in ads.... It makes sense to me -- I certainly feel more impact in my hand from a good hard chop at a piece of seasoned hardwood than from anything else I ever do with a knife. Sometimes you hit a knot and the knife hardly penetrates at all, so there's nothing to absorb the shock.
I'd like to see a Cold Steel Bushman included in the test. It's always good to include a cheap common knife that many (most?) of us have as a baseline for comparison. In this case the Bushman is particularly relevant because many of us keep one in our cars. Judging from posts I've seen the Bushman has to be the most popular throw in the car in case of emergency and forget about it knife.
Cutting seat belts afterward is a great idea -- that's a practical test. Who cares if a knife can't shave after cutting through a car roof ... if it can't cut a seat belt that could be of practical significance. I suppose any of us knife knuts would have another knife in our pockets but if we're trying to get people out of a burning car we'd rather not stop in the middle of the operation to get out another knife.
I doubt there's any significant difference between cars. I expect the time it takes will depend more on who's doing it than on what knife he uses, but if the same guy cuts into several cars with different knives he'll be able to tell which knife is best for the purpose. I'd pay more attention to his subjective opinion than to the stopwatch because he'll know if he was getting tired or if he was just getting warmed up. If several people test the same knives that'll average out personal preferences.
By the way, I have a low opinion of the Recon Tanto but it'll do well in this test. One more thing it's good for ... besides hunting snipe....
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-Cougar Allen :{)
--------------------------------------
This post is not merely the author's opinions; it is the trrrrrruth. This post is intended to cause dissension and unrest and upset people, and ultimately drive them mad. Please do not misinterpret my intentions in posting this.
It's interesting that Cliff says the test that's most likely to shatter a knife is vigorous chopping at hard wood (and if anybody knows, it's him....) That sheds some light on the validity of all these other toughness tests we see in ads.... It makes sense to me -- I certainly feel more impact in my hand from a good hard chop at a piece of seasoned hardwood than from anything else I ever do with a knife. Sometimes you hit a knot and the knife hardly penetrates at all, so there's nothing to absorb the shock.
I'd like to see a Cold Steel Bushman included in the test. It's always good to include a cheap common knife that many (most?) of us have as a baseline for comparison. In this case the Bushman is particularly relevant because many of us keep one in our cars. Judging from posts I've seen the Bushman has to be the most popular throw in the car in case of emergency and forget about it knife.
Cutting seat belts afterward is a great idea -- that's a practical test. Who cares if a knife can't shave after cutting through a car roof ... if it can't cut a seat belt that could be of practical significance. I suppose any of us knife knuts would have another knife in our pockets but if we're trying to get people out of a burning car we'd rather not stop in the middle of the operation to get out another knife.
I doubt there's any significant difference between cars. I expect the time it takes will depend more on who's doing it than on what knife he uses, but if the same guy cuts into several cars with different knives he'll be able to tell which knife is best for the purpose. I'd pay more attention to his subjective opinion than to the stopwatch because he'll know if he was getting tired or if he was just getting warmed up. If several people test the same knives that'll average out personal preferences.
By the way, I have a low opinion of the Recon Tanto but it'll do well in this test. One more thing it's good for ... besides hunting snipe....
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-Cougar Allen :{)
--------------------------------------
This post is not merely the author's opinions; it is the trrrrrruth. This post is intended to cause dissension and unrest and upset people, and ultimately drive them mad. Please do not misinterpret my intentions in posting this.
Cliff Stamp
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Brian :
While I appreciate the offer, I do have to warn you that I have very little restrictions on blade usage and that while I can usually tell if a blade will suffer gross failure by referencing lower stress work, this is far from 100% so there is a very real possibility that the blade could suffer functional damage. If you are prepared to deal with this than the only restriction I have on blade evaluation is that the scope of work cannot be predetermined. This is to eliminate the possibility of the work from being biased.
-Cliff
While I appreciate the offer, I do have to warn you that I have very little restrictions on blade usage and that while I can usually tell if a blade will suffer gross failure by referencing lower stress work, this is far from 100% so there is a very real possibility that the blade could suffer functional damage. If you are prepared to deal with this than the only restriction I have on blade evaluation is that the scope of work cannot be predetermined. This is to eliminate the possibility of the work from being biased.
-Cliff
Cliff Stamp
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Cougar :
The problem with them is that they tend to fall apart quite quickly and thus you would need a steady supply of them. For example awhile ago I bought a large 440A bolo ($20 or something) to compare against I think the CS Trailmaster. I accidently broke the bolo when I used it as a hammer on a khukuri to split some wood.
[quoting me]
To be specific the wood has to still be attached to a tree, I don't mean hacking at a dowel. That level of stress is not in the same league at all. While the raw impacts are similar the blade sees a very different event when it impacts a branch. The followup is very important as well. I don't loosen my grip and maintain a full power swing even after maximum penetration. The difference is in the lateral stresses placed across the edge, you get none for example when you do loose grip chopping on a dowel (or whatever).
If you want to simulate branch chopping but don't have the ability because of location you can get an idea of the performance by doing the following. Maintain a very tight grip on the handle of the blade powering down with heavy force and then smack the spine of the blade repeatily with a large club chopping straight through the dowel. Do not attempt to line up each blow *this is the important part* chop quickly with no "aiming".
-Cliff
The problem with them is that they tend to fall apart quite quickly and thus you would need a steady supply of them. For example awhile ago I bought a large 440A bolo ($20 or something) to compare against I think the CS Trailmaster. I accidently broke the bolo when I used it as a hammer on a khukuri to split some wood.
[quoting me]
To be specific the wood has to still be attached to a tree, I don't mean hacking at a dowel. That level of stress is not in the same league at all. While the raw impacts are similar the blade sees a very different event when it impacts a branch. The followup is very important as well. I don't loosen my grip and maintain a full power swing even after maximum penetration. The difference is in the lateral stresses placed across the edge, you get none for example when you do loose grip chopping on a dowel (or whatever).
If you want to simulate branch chopping but don't have the ability because of location you can get an idea of the performance by doing the following. Maintain a very tight grip on the handle of the blade powering down with heavy force and then smack the spine of the blade repeatily with a large club chopping straight through the dowel. Do not attempt to line up each blow *this is the important part* chop quickly with no "aiming".
-Cliff
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Allen, I'm positng here so that interested parties are up-to-date with the goings on. I received your e-mail, and I'll send both out tommorrow, standard UPS, and you can do with them as you see fit. Just send back the pieces.
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Don LeHue
The pen is mightier than the sword...outside of arm's reach. Modify radius accordingly for rifle.
------------------
Don LeHue
The pen is mightier than the sword...outside of arm's reach. Modify radius accordingly for rifle.
Cougar Allen
Buccaneer (ret.)
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The Bushman is carbon steel, tempered on the soft side. I'm not saying it's a great knife; edgeholding is not its strong point and the round handle isn't great either, but I'll be surprised if one suddenly breaks on you. I'd expect this test to dull the edge quite a bit but cheap carbon steel knives are not as prone to breakage as cheap stainless knives. I don't recall ever seeing a post about a Bushman breaking and people beat on them pretty hard. The coating scratches very easily and the edge rolls and indents, but it doesn't chip or break.
I'd expect the edge to last well enough to finish cutting the hole, but dulling will probably slow it down toward the end, and I don't know whether it'll cut a seat belt after that.
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-Cougar Allen :{)
--------------------------------------
This post is not merely the author's opinions; it is the trrrrrruth. This post is intended to cause dissension and unrest and upset people, and ultimately drive them mad. Please do not misinterpret my intentions in posting this.
I'd expect the edge to last well enough to finish cutting the hole, but dulling will probably slow it down toward the end, and I don't know whether it'll cut a seat belt after that.
------------------
-Cougar Allen :{)
--------------------------------------
This post is not merely the author's opinions; it is the trrrrrruth. This post is intended to cause dissension and unrest and upset people, and ultimately drive them mad. Please do not misinterpret my intentions in posting this.
Cliff Stamp
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Cougar, sorry I should have been more specific, I don't think the Bushman would be functionally damaged by the car cutting Allen is planning. What I was referring to was the fact that if you compared it to a similar function high end blade over a broader scope of work it would, so basically it would last one complete review.
Now of course you could just use it as a comparison in certain areas and not others. However I generally don't like doing this because it can give a very skewed impression as the reason for paying more is largely to gain strength/durability. The potentional for misinterpretation is very strong when doing selective comparisons.
-Cliff
Now of course you could just use it as a comparison in certain areas and not others. However I generally don't like doing this because it can give a very skewed impression as the reason for paying more is largely to gain strength/durability. The potentional for misinterpretation is very strong when doing selective comparisons.
-Cliff