Im thinking a saiga12 for survival, whats your take.

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Cpl Punishment said:
28" barrels are too long for all-round use, and I don't see shorter barrels for sale for it.

3 1/2" 12 ga shells are not needed, and most people don't see any real benefit. If you need that much more shot, a 10ga tends to disburse shot better.

A ported shotgun -- good for recoil, LOUD as hell, louder than a non-ported gun.

If you want an autoloading Remington, the 11-87 is the way to go, you can use 2 /34 or 3" shells, RemChokes (IC is best for slugs and buckshot, Mod for most other shot sizes, and Full for the smaller bird shot (say, smaller than #4 Bird). 1 gun, 3 choke tubes. And with the 21" barrel I mentioned above, you have rifle sights, so you can sight it for slugs, and use the front post like you would a bead for shot shooting.
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Thank you, Corporal!
 
Cpl Punishment said:
For a fighting shotgun, where you pick it up and lock and load on the way to a fight, it's great. But, as mentioned above (and on WarriorTalk, BTW), the deformed shell phenomenon calls for leaving it unloaded until you're close to needing it -- not a good thing for survival situations of long duration.
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yeah, I agree. I just didn't really enjoy shooting mine that much...maybe I bought into the hype too much. Fussy gun with Value pack target, exaggerated recoil, can't store rounds, and AK finishing. Also, you can get basic conversions for $700, just need to look in the right places.
 
I know nothing about the Saiga's other than they look cool.

I do know Benelli and so do you so why not look for a Super Black Eagle? Same gun, but gives you all of the options you already have at a used gun price?


The SBE is my favorite shotgun!

btw - I have M1, M3, and M4 also
 
Thanks for the post. WHole lot more responses than i expected,, Thanks everbody!

Ive know about the shell deformation from the saiga forum and there only response is that it occurs after months in the chamber if at all. Many advocate leaving the chamber empty to avoid this but I think than in a SHTF type of situation i could remember to change out the round after a month, if it wasnt fired by then. They seem to belive its a non issue and that is the forum for saiga owners so I tend to belive them.

As far as getting a Nice tube gun REDBEAR15, im certainly into it. My top pick is of the benneli family the Berreta extrema 2 I can get one of GB for $1000 and I can get a mag extension for it with up to 5 more shells capacity. The Berreta/benneli line are the best autoloaders around and extremly well made. However the cheap kalashnikov desighn continues to amaze.

Saiga 12 owners report amazing reliability and ive seen the accuracy tests, in fact the only bad things ive heard about them are from non owners who hate the kalashnikov and label all AK's as inacurate junk. I havent owned one and arent really atracted to the guns looks but the results seem impressive.

I still not sold though and was looking for someone with saiga hunting experiance. Im well aware of the xtrema 2's game getting ability and would be confident in it. However the saiga has the unique abilty to convert from 2-5rnd hunting shotgun to 2 coupled 10rnd battle shotgun with a mag change out. Oh and those 10rnd mags really do stick out about 13inches.
 
The Saiga is cool and great for 3 gun events. But for real world and 870 and a ton of ammo makes more sense for me.
 
dan-g said:
Ive know about the shell deformation from the saiga forum and there only response is that it occurs after months in the chamber if at all.
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That's not the problem, a round can stay chambered indefinitely. It's the top round in the magazine being pushed down by the closed bolt that causes it to deform, forming a flat on the top of the shell which is at its worst toward the front of the shell, making it not want to chamber.

The maddening thing is, the problem doesn't always crop up, and if you download a 10 round magazine to 7-8 rounds, it may never happen.

Of course on a tube-fed gun, the tube can get smacked and deform reducing your capacity to whatever will pass through the tube before getting to where it's crushed in.

Everything has its weaknesses, all machines have their failure modes and nothing lasts forever.

Being that the prolonged end-of-the-world scenario where you're living out of a backpack and only have one gun for the rest of your life kind of thing is an extremely unlikely event, IMO you should look at what you REALLY want the gun to do, and since there's a very large number of makes and models that can perform any given set of tasks, pick the one you REALLY like from the set of those that can do what you want, and just be happy.
 
Ahhh Capl. Thanks for picking that up I reread that post on the siaga forums and I got it wrong. Underloading the mags was a mentioned fix. Your also dead on with the mental justifications, the saiga looks like a wierd weapon for hunting and genral fun and I am atracted to the weird and fun. I will be using this gun for hunting though and probably never for defence so the Xtrema 2 is a far more logical choice. I would be imensly pissed if my new 25inch hunting shotgun had worse acuracy than my 18inch benneli.

The only other factor I didnt mention is im selling my benneli (my only shotgun) to fund this new hunting gun so I really need this new shotgun to do its job. Im going to be broke for the next 4 years going back to school and cant afford another gun trade where I lose $1000. (im selling my benneli for $1700 to fund this new shotgun hence the $1000 loss). MY logical side is winning, the Berreta is a sure bet and with my first kid on the way I need my freezer full of that all natural free range meat.

ON a side note have you ever tryed to buy all natural freerange meat at any store $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
I bought a Saiga 12 gauge with several ten round mags and a 12 round drum a few months back. It shoots like a dream and can be fired as fast as you can pull the trigger and still stay on target. The rifle sights, though close spaced, are another plus. They give you a really good and fast sight picture. I've put about 400 rounds of Nr 4 and 00 buck through mine so far with absolutely no problems. It is something else to fire 10 rounds of 4 buck, which is 27 .22 cal balls at close to 1400 fps, into a dirt berm in less than 2 seconds. Talk about destruction. Wow! BTW, I keep 8 rounds in the mags and 10 in the drum to both ease spring tension and prevent deforming of the shell pressed against the bolt. Although that may be a non problem since most of the tension seems to be on the brass part of the shell. Now that I've read the comments in this thread, I intend to load a mag to capacity (10rounds) and leave it in the gun for a couple of weeks, then see what the top shell looks like.
 
I own a Saiga 12. The biggest problem facing them is parts availability.

The Saiga 12 is popular in 3 gun and 3 gunners probably put more rounds down range than damn near anyone. For those running the Saiga it is a common practice to buy a second "parts gun" since its the onlyway to get spare parts. Thats not my idea of a survival gun.

My go-to gun for 3 gun is my FN SLP Mk1.
 
I have no practical experience with the Saiga, but what the folks are saying here have convinced me that I would NEVER choose to carry one as my primary shotgun. Fun gun, sure. Competition gun, maybe. WSS gun, nope.

I have seen many gas guns,even Benellis, get finicky when switching between slugs and shot rounds. The gas regulators need to be adjusted and sometimes there isn't time. I've seen both autos and pumps jam, get rounds behind the lifter, bent tubes, etc.

After 30 years afield and over 10 in LE the only shotgun that has NEVER failed me is my old, cheap, Rossi single shot. Is it best for zombies? Absolutely not. For everything else, it has performed flawlessly. It has put food on the table, cash in my pocket at the range, and has accompanied me when things go bump in the night. Not much more I can ask of a shotgun.

Would I carry it on duty with me? No. My issued 870 shortie fills that role nicely. If I needed a patrol or zombie shotgun I would probably grab a 500 or 590. But the Stoeger Double Defense also has possibilities although most everyone says it is ridiculous.

The bottom line is shoot and hunt with what you want, as long as it is legal in your area. Your choices may not be mine but isn't that what this country is about?
 
dan-g said:
That conversion price is off, I can get a complete do it yourself kit with butstock handgrip for $200 from mississippi arms. Although im not converting it, im leaving the sporting stock so I can take it to the trap range and not get hassled when hunting. That $1000 is for the accesories I listed and a crapload of mags.
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different conversions come with different options. the one i listed has the HK sights and rails on the forend. didn't see those on the Mississippi Arms version, but perhaps i missed them.

didn't know the Binnelli took mags. my question on the Binelli was the $1K price difference between what i can get one for locally and the $2,600 price you listed.

and if you get hassled for taking a pistol gripped gun to the trap range or hunting, the people you hang with may be wound too tight! :rolleyes:

i'll stick with my M590A1 with the 18.5" barrel, modified Vang Comp mag extension and side sling adapter, Surefire forend and i'm needing to get a Mesa Tactical stock and grip conversion for it. and then there's a stack of ARs to go with that.
 
I currently have 3 11/87s, I guess that sums up my thoughts. I have taken every variety of game that lives in the southeast and most of what lives in the southwest with an 11/87. They can be kitted out for combat use very quickly as well. The only downside is the o ring in the gas system, with literally thousands of rounds down range I have only had one fail in the field, however I am so paranoid about it I have them stashed everywhere.

As much as I love my shottys and use them almost exclusively, for a SHTF, one gun scenario they would not be my first choice. I would probably try to feed myself with traps, snares and fishing and fire my gun as a last resort. Deer are creatures of habit and locking, cable snares are particularly effective for them. Chris
 
whats wrong with taking a pistol-gripped shotgun hunting? my hunting (deer and turkey) shotgun has a pistol-grip (m-4 style) stock on it.

as for the OP, if I had the cash to buy a saiga I would. And I would use it as a survival gun if necessary. (that is apocolypse type survival; not a keep in my vehicle survival gun (only because I am a college student, and I'm pretty sure its illegal to have a firearm on campus; even in your vehicle))
 
I know it's been only mentioned a couple of times but I would definitely go with a Rem870 or a Moss500/590. I personally love the 870 and it's the only pump gun I would own and as was mentioned the parts are available everywhere. If you look at most companies that make custom tactical shotguns, they're almost always 870s. Why? Because of availability of aftermarket accessories and reliability. There's something to be said for that. The 870 is also what's used by most police and federal agencies for a reason: when you pull the trigger it goes boom. A good pump gun will also feed any ammo, whereas every auto I've used was finicky with ammo. It's also versatile in that it's easy to swap barrels and there are a ton available.

My go to shotgun is my olive drab Scattergun Technologies / Wilson Combat Standard Shotgun. It's a highly refined Remington 870 that has been tuned, added to, made even more reliable, given an incredibly tough finish, and then over charged for (although at $1400 it's a drop in the bucket compared to your Benelli). If the world comes to the end then that's my choice for shotgun. It's reliable beyond belief (it's had countless rounds through it and has never once malfunctioned), can take a beating (mine has been in the sand and mud with me, has been slammed against door jams and corners when clearing rooms and has jumped out of airplanes with me and still looks nearly new). It feeds anything I put into it without a problem (including breaching rounds and kinetic less-lethal rounds). Mine has ghost ring sights, which are not as fast as a bead when shooting flying fowl, but great for slugs. It's accurate, despite the 18.5" barrel, beyond any shotgun I have ever seen keeping a very tight pattern (I can do head shots on targets at 120 meters with slugs). It has a SureFire tac light for use when identifying bad guys but also good for illegal night hunting of deer, etc., which I would do in a heart beat in a SHTF scenario. The only problem I have with it is that it's a heavy beast and the stock is longer than I like, easily remedied by adding a Choate Mark 5 Youth Stock, taking off or leaving the Side Saddle empty and replacing the SureFire forend with one with a small rail on it for a lightweight SureFire G2.

The reason I chose a shotgun for my One Gun (although I can't imagine not having more than one firearm) is for it's versatility. I can literally take any game in North America with a 12 ga. Shot for small game and fish, buckshot or slugs for big game. All readily available anywhere in the US. It's much more versatile than my M-4, even with the shottie's shortcomings of weight, capacity and accuracy. And I wouldn't want an M-4 for taking a lot of game, especially dangerous game.

Nothing beats a break barrel for simplicity and weight, but of course there's the 1 or 2 shots limit.
 
kage said:
The reason I chose a shotgun for my One Gun (although I can't imagine not having more than one firearm) is for it's versatility. I can literally take any game in North America with a 12 ga. Shot for small game and fish, buckshot or slugs for big game. All readily available anywhere in the US. It's much more versatile than my M-4, even with the shottie's shortcomings of weight, capacity and accuracy. And I wouldn't want an M-4 for taking a lot of game, especially dangerous game.

Nothing beats a break barrel for simplicity and weight, but of course there's the 1 or 2 shots limit.
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There is one thing that keeps me from agreeing with you whole hearted, the amount of ammo that you can carry. Shotgun shells are heavy and bulky and you just can't carry enough to make me consider it for a one gun scenario. I love shotguns and would like to change my mind but I just can't get around the weight, if I had to choose a shotgun it would be a 20 gauge. Chris
 
I know what your saying. Ammo weight and bulk does make it more difficult as The One gun. That's where a .22 really shines. Perfect for small game, ammo weighs nothing and you can carry a ton of it. I wouldn't want it for large game or 2 legged predators though.

Maybe the Savage 24-C combo with .22 and 20 ga. would be a better alternative. Kind of the best of both worlds.

My preference is still 12 ga. though, and it has a lot more variety of ammo and is more readily available.
 
One Gun to rule them all, One Gun to find them, One Gun to bring them all and in the darkness bind them.
 
Yea, the one gun conversation again.

Well as far as the saiga goes it seem like a fun gun but the 870 gets the most votes with any benneli/beretta comming in second.

Thanks for all the good feedback. I realized my love of the weird and tactical was influencing my saiga decision and in the end its much better to go with the proven tool for when you need it.

Unless someone comes out of the woods with some new info we could call this done, Right?
 
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