Improving my Technique of Sharpening on a Wet Stone

%@*(&^@^&()%()&*^@#% Well, I just tried sharpening my buddies S30V for the SECOND time and its still extremely underwhelming. On my coarse stone it takes about 20 strokes per side to get a burr. Then maybe 15 by the end of that stone. Any less and I don't develop a $*#$ #$*( burr. But on the medium stone, I cant get a burr going even if I go over the stone 40 times on one side consecutively. I freakin counted! I have had to ignore the burr thing for the last two stones. So I just do even amounts of strokes on each side.

To reiterate, this is an S30V Kershaw Leek. I worked at this knife for 3 hours today and it's pathetic. A few days ago when I tried to sharpen it the first time, it's edge was completely missing and at least I got an edge back. Should I just be resorting to diamond stones or S30V?

I'm so worn out and ticked off from trying to sharpen that thing. I touched up my 154CM Benchmade the other day (just on the fine stoen)so that I could push cut paper with it and since I could do that I thought I had it figured out for the S30V and tried again. NOPE
 
Are you sure you're not developing a burr on the finer stones? It can be a little difficult to feel the burr, as it seems to be a little finer, at least in my experience.

Are you using slightly lighter strokes as you get to the finer stones? If you're really scrubbing away at the blade, you might be blasting the edge away as you go.

Kristopher
 
If you're really scrubbing away at the blade, you might be blasting the edge away as you go.
^^^ Yeah, probably doing that. I keep my angle as consistent as a human can and get some crazy cramps. Honestly, I can't feel a burr with my finger nail but I really get a little lost in this stuff. Honestly, I can sharpen kitchen knives and lesser steels with my eyes closed just by using a consistent 10 on each side, 8 on each side, etc. and then lots of once on each sides, on each stone. But I'm kinda lost with this knife. Should I be straightening out the burr every time I switch sides? I haven't seen anyone do that. What confuses me as why I would push into the tip when a burr has just been rolled over on that side. That right there makes me get confused on what exactly is going on when I flip sides after a burr. It seems like I am just encouraging the edge to keep folding over further.
 
Just take it easy while sharpening. Raise a burr on one side, flip to the other side and raise a burr again. You then want to go back and smooth out the edge/remove the burr. The knife you're sharpening might be a little more difficult than knives made of other steels, but steel is steel. What works for one knife will work for other steels.

Feeling a burr with your fingernail can be a little difficult sometimes. I usually rub my finger down the blade from the spine toward the edge to feel the burr.

Just try to keep everything consistent as you go along, work your way through the stones until you're as fine as you want to go, then strop the knife with your choice of strop and you should be good.

Kristopher
 
Counting may be an issue, go by the steel/stones, not by set numbers. Marker the edge and do one swipe to see if your bevel is flat as DM said. Higher pressure means bigger burr, which means more time taking the burr off.
 
That right there makes me get confused on what exactly is going on when I flip sides after a burr. It seems like I am just encouraging the edge to keep folding over further.

Let's go step by step on WHY we form a burr and what to do with it.

0. You have a blade with a rounded off profile. It's blunt at the edge and you need to grind both sides flat so they meet at a sharp triangular point.
1. Grind side A until you get a burr to show up, full length, on side B. When you're done, side A will be nice and flat, while side B will be rounded but with a burr sticking off of it.
2. Grind side B. The first handful of strokes will remove the burr. The rest of the strokes will grind side B, removing it's roundness and making it flat which is what you want. You'll know you are done making side B flat, and it has met side A, when you form another burr. This burr will form on side A.
3. Ok, both sides are flat and you have a second burr, now on side A. What to do now?? Let's pretend you want a course, but sharp edge. Grind lightly on side A to remove the burr. Your goal is to simply grind that tiny curl of metal away, leaving two flat bevels that meet at a triangular apex.
4. But what if, while grinding on side A to remove the burr, you accidentally form another burr on side B? It happens. It's a natural part of sharpening. Grind lightly on side B and try to remove the burr.
5. Final de-burring. So you've lightly ground on side A and B and you've ground off most of the burr, but it keeps flipping on you. Try the following methods to remove the last bits of burr:
A. Pull the edge 2- 5 times through the end grain of soft wood. Try cork if you have some. Try cardboard if that's all you've got.
B. Do light back and forth strokes, one per side on A and then B, back and forth half a dozen or more times. The idea is to get the last bits of burr that might be on either side to go away. This should reduce it substantially.
C. Stropping. This means edge trailing strokes, pulling away from the edge. Try stropping on your stone. Try stropping on leather. Try it on cardboard. All of these will have some effect on removing the burr.
D. If none of this works, try increasing your edge angle a bit and doing one light stroke on the side with the burr. It's probably going to flip. If it does, do one stroke on the other side, at this new increased angle. Then do step B above.

As you can probably see, removing the burr is a "big deal" and can take practice and different techniques. It's essential to get a burr on both sides or you'll never know when the edge is apexed (perfectly triangular and pointy).

Keep at it.

Brian.
 
But on the medium stone, I cant get a burr going even if I go over the stone 40 times on one side consecutively.

Remember what I said about Arkansas stones and S30V? If your medium and fine stones are Arkansas (and it sounds like it), they aren't going to cut S30V worth a darn. I'd try using something else. Or just get the BEST coarse edge you can with the one stone.

Should I just be resorting to diamond stones or S30V?
Diamonds will cut it nice and fast. If you have them available, give them a try.

Brian.
 
Yes. Make sure you get a burr on the *entire length* of the edge on one side. When you flip the blade over on the other side, your goal is the same: Get a burr on the entire length of the other side. Only after getting a burr on BOTH sides will you know you have completely apexed the edge.



I deleted a few points in between that seemed a little confused. We come to this one which is important. The back and forth, one stroke per side, is a finishing technique to try to remove the last tiny bits of burr. But we're not there yet. At this point you should have developed a burr on one side, and then the other and right now you have a burr on that second side, full length.

So you want to remove that burr by doing a few light strokes on the stone, on the side with the burr. After every two or three strokes, feel for the burr and see if it's gone. Once it's gone it *might* form again on the other side. So check the other side too.

Once it's gone from one side maybe you feel a little on the other side, or maybe a lot. Either way, try to remove it from the other side too. But it might form on the original side again!! This is called "chasing the burr". Pulling the blade lightly through soft wood, cork, or cardboard can help strip some of this off. Once you've gotten the burr substantially reduced, it's time to do alternating strokes, one on each side, until you either feel ZERO burr on both sides, or it's as burr free as you can make it.

At this point, off of the coarse stone, it should feel very sharp, shave hair, and cut paper. If it doesn't, you probably have some burr left. Try lightly cutting soft wood, or stropping a bit. This was a revelation for me when I realized that I could shave hair with a blade straight from a coarse stone!! I've spent many, many years doing it wrong. Only when I got this did I make a leap in my sharpening. If it's not sharp, full length, off of the coarse, you're not done with that stone yet.



This isn't the right approach IMHO. I think you need to form a burr, again, on both sides with the medium stone. Only then will you know that you have apexed the edge with this new stone. Otherwise, when do you stop? You could do it visually and see the scratch pattern change to a finer pattern. But how do you know you actually hit the *edge*? You don't unless you form a burr or gain a lot of experience.

There's something else to consider here with your S30V knife. Most of the "trihone" sets have synthetic stone for the coarse, which will cut S30V. But the medium and fine are usually Arkansas stones, which pretty much *won't* cut S30V. If that's what you've got, there's almost no point in using them. Either use a different sharpening medium to get a finer edge, or just strop and be done with it. You list your stones at 600 and 1000 which sounds about like soft Arkansas and hard Arkansas. That will work (slowly) on basic stainless, but not on S30V.



Same story here as with the medium stone. Form a burr on both sides, then reduce and remove it.



Yes. :)

Strictly speaking, you don't have to remove the burr at each stage. But you *do* have to form a burr, on both sides, with each stone. You can leave the removal of the burr until the last stone if you want. I prefer to remove it at each stone and then test the edge with paper, hair, or both, just so I can feel the differences and so I am dead certain I've made a difference with each stone.

I hope this helped.

Brian.

i dont know how I forgot about this the first time I read through the comments, but this is very very helpful. It pretty much gets rid of all my confusion. Its nice to know that I spent about three hours last night just polishing the blade, if anything, on my two Arkansas stones. Yes, two of the three stones are Arkansas.

Thanks. I think Im going to add insult to injury and try to sharpen his knife again.
 
Yay for me. I've successfully touched up two 154CM knives, sharpened one dull as crap mystery steel knife, and put an entirely new edge on another mystery steel knife. All of those knives shave hair. In fact, both of my arms are almost completely bare. I look like a mangy cat. The key for me was not finding the huge burr I was originally finding. The key was finding the microscopic burr.


But I have new questions now.

Question One:
So after I sharpen a knife on the coarse synthetic stone, I switch from pushing/cutting into the stone, to pulling/cutting away from the stone, for the most part. Is this a problem???? I am concerned about longevitiy of because I am probably just pulling back the burr to make it the actual edge, instead of grinding off the burr.

Second question:
I don't do hardly anything on my 600 or 1000 grit arkansas stone beside clean up the burr. ...even with the homemade knifes with mystery steel. I feel like I'm still not doing something right because of this. ?????



I also still need to work on my steadiness/angle going away from my body. So I know there is a lot more I can do to improve my technique. But as a success story, here is a blade that I took today and got rid of the satin finish and tons of scraps I put in the blade by getting frustrated sharpening and scraping the blade with the stone. It was the first blade I ever tried refinishing. After refinishing the blade, I was left with nearly no edge. I reground the edge to a hair shaving tip...and it also looks great. Check it out!


Before finishing (pic doesn't show it but there were grind lines on the grind):
9491762224_e1b95cefc7_c.jpg


Here's one side I temporarily finished only to a satin finish with 600 grit. Should have went to 800.
9491761042_fd03d3097e_c.jpg


Here is the mirror finish with no edge (as evidence):
9488965169_7ccdd1a07e_c.jpg


Final product.
I assumed this project was going to turn into a disaster. Most likely at the resharpening/regrinding point. But hey, check it out, a miracle!
9491759972_61bc19a210_c.jpg


THANKS FOR THE TIPS!
 
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On the edge leading vs edge trailing issue, it's totally based on the steel and abrasive.

Checkout these few threads to have better understanding and then experiment:
www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/992879-Apex-Bevel-Geometry-cross-sectional
www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1090016-Micro-bevels-as-a-method-to-deburr
www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/697747-The-burr

Jason (knifenut1013) uses light edge trailing. Bluntcut is the proponent of edge leading.

In addition, these two will be very helpful:
Washboard:
www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1094684-Washboard-start-to-finish-vs-Cold-Steel-Recon
Balance strop:
www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/1036649-A-balanced-strop

Lastly: good job from the photo there! If you're happy with the result, then it's all that matters!
 
I strop leading and trailing on the edge pro when CrO2 is too coarse for mirror polished edges.

Up to 1k edges I use edge trailing on my jeans loaded with CrO2.

I just use synthetic stones, they cut everything.
 
Yay for me. I've successfully touched up two 154CM knives, sharpened one dull as crap mystery steel knife, and put an entirely new edge on another mystery steel knife. All of those knives shave hair.

Congrats. Feels great to make a knife sharp! :)

The key for me was not finding the huge burr I was originally finding. The key was finding the microscopic burr.

Not sure what you mean. Are you talking about finding a smaller burr made by finer stones? Detecting the burr can be tricky sometimes, but *usually* for me , if I'm having trouble finding the burr, it just means I haven't made one yet.

So after I sharpen a knife on the coarse synthetic stone, I switch from pushing/cutting into the stone, to pulling/cutting away from the stone, for the most part. Is this a problem???? I am concerned about longevitiy of because I am probably just pulling back the burr to make it the actual edge, instead of grinding off the burr.

It's a problem if you're not removing the burr. A burr won't stand up to any kind of use. If your edge fails right away with use, then you're not removing the burr and instead "standing it up" like you said. I've seen several videos recently where the burr is removed by drawing the blade *sideways* across the stone. This is supposed to grind it down as opposed to snapping it off. Give it a try.

I don't do hardly anything on my 600 or 1000 grit arkansas stone beside clean up the burr. ...even with the homemade knifes with mystery steel. I feel like I'm still not doing something right because of this. ?????

It depends on who you listen to. Murray Carter only does edge trailing strokes on stones above 1000 grit (Japanese water stones). He gets crazy sharp edges. He also doesn't do much work at all on anything above the 1k stone. For reference, 1k Japanese is about like 320 ANSI.

On the other hand, knifenut, and many others here do full back and forth strokes on stones above 1k. I've noticed that it doesn't take very long to form a burr with finer stones after I've set the bevel with a coarse stone. So it won't feel like "a lot of work" because it isn't. You're just refining the surface you cut into the bevel on the coarse stone.

If you want pretty mirror polished bevels, you need to keep grinding on the finer stones for long enough for the scratches from the previous stone to be removed. This might take longer than it takes to form a burr. Or it might be right at the same time. You just have to look and judge the condition of the bevel as you grind.

Again, congrats on your progress.

Brian.
 
Yay for me. I've successfully touched up two 154CM knives, sharpened one dull as crap mystery steel knife, and put an entirely new edge on another mystery steel knife. All of those knives shave hair. In fact, both of my arms are almost completely bare. I look like a mangy cat. The key for me was not finding the huge burr I was originally finding. The key was finding the microscopic burr.


But I have new questions now.

Question One:
So after I sharpen a knife on the coarse synthetic stone, I switch from pushing/cutting into the stone, to pulling/cutting away from the stone, for the most part. Is this a problem???? I am concerned about longevitiy of because I am probably just pulling back the burr to make it the actual edge, instead of grinding off the burr.

Generally, if your stone is a hard natural or vitreous stone, or a diamond plate you should finish with an edge leading stroke. This will produce a cleaner edge - less residual burr and a more uniform apex.

If using a waterstone, sandpaper, or loose abrasive over another surface (lapping), you should finish edge trailing, even if done with just a whisper of pressure.

On very fine, hard stones, it is possible to do some light polishing with an edge trailing stroke once the burr is removed. This does not work well for removing the burr.

Production of a clean apex depends on the interplay of pressure and abrasion. Generally, the burr needs to be removed with enough pressure that the abrasive can still grind off the burr, but not so much pressure that the burr flips. The level of pressure associated with either action will change based on the type of abrasive, the amount of fixation to its base, and how conformable its base is.

Backhoning on a hard stone is far more likely to flip the burr before it grinds away. Add some mobility to the abrasive (lapping/waterstones), or allow its base to deform a bit in response to pressure (sandpaper), or both (stropping with compound) and now it becomes possible to produce a clean(er) edge with a trailing movement.

These are general statements. Murray Carter does nearly 100% of his clean-up and polishing with a trailing stroke on waterstones, but even he will resort to a few leading strokes if necessary on a stubborn burr.
 
It's a problem if you're not removing the burr. A burr won't stand up to any kind of use. If your edge fails right away with use, then you're not removing the burr and instead "standing it up" like you said. I've seen several videos recently where the burr is removed by drawing the blade *sideways* across the stone. This is supposed to grind it down as opposed to snapping it off. Give it a try.

Thats what I was thinking. The problem I am running into is thwt if I do egldge leading strokes it feels like i am grinding the edge to a blunt tip. (at least thats what I think I would be doing) I asked my buddy for his S30V leek AGAIN today. Sounds like Im going to have to change my method again and Im going to have, yet again, another frustrating night changing my methods. I will see. Thanks for the tips.
 
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