In 1948, Western made.....

Codger_64

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a quad-fold catalog showing many of their rigid and folding knives. This is the cover of the folded catalog brochure.

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Here is the price list from that catalog.

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This is the bi-fold pages showing the rigid blades and specs.

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And this is the bi-fold showing the folders available.

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Here is my favorite of the moment, the L88!

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This is the old Marble's Woodcraft pattern blade (Marble's patent expired in 1934) with the Platts patent double tang. Any idea when Western quit making the L88?

Codger
 
This 1948 catalog page shows examples of magazines they advertised in in 1947.

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Here is an L52 from Field and Stream 1948.
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They were proud of their use of the advanced plastics developed during the war. Here are ads from 1949.

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Codger
 
Codger;

Look at the pattern #6346.....what company do you think might have made that knife for Western?
 
It has a lot of simularities with the Schrade Cut Co. 8364 3/4 (3 9/16"), and the 81004 3/8Stg (3 7/8"), but my Schrade resouces have a gap from 1939-1949, this exact year, so since there is not an exact size match, I'd be hesitant to say the Carpenter's Special was definately made for them by Schrade, though the latter knife is illustrated with the same blade etch in 1938. The Schrade Cut Co. number of this 3 7/8" pattern was 804 in 1953, but the etch became Everlastingly Sharp. In none of these instances do the lengths match, nor did Schrade use that particular jigging style that I can see. So while there are some similarities with Schrade products, I'd be real hesitant to say it was a Schrade SFO. Did you have another maker in mind? Carpenter knives were a popular pattern for most makers of the early to mid twentieth century, and I don't know enough about the jig patterns to assign the Western 6346 to any other cutler with any degree of certainty.

Are you seeing something I am missing?
Codger
 
Thanks, Mike, wonderful stuff as usual.

I have not participated in the threads having to do with the strike, purported bankruptcy, ect. As I have written here before, nothing I can write will make a damn bit of difference. What I was trying to do in the Camillus Collectibles thread was to point out what a great, wonderful history Camillus has and how I hope it continues.

Phil
 
Thanks so much to Codger for his info... and research.

I have just bought an old style Western scout knife and am very pleased with it - it needs cleaning a bit, but the springs are strong etc. ; I was going to ask you guys about the history of this company. Did it eventually have links with Coleman ? I have an old wornout stockman with 'Western Coleman' stamped on the tang, which looks like a 1960s piece.



Any further info on this saga appreciated greatly.
 
Likewise Phil. If I had Camillus resources, I would be posting them here.

I've just now acquired this interesting earlier Western material. Thankyou edbeau for the scans of the later stuff! The '75 brochure was most interesting, though I was a little disappointed that it wasn't an actual catalog, it more than made up for it in historical content and illustrations!

I also hope Camillus survives. I'll not count them gone just yet. Management is up to their butts in alligators just now, and so are the striking workers, so who knows which way it will go.

I reminded of an old fable. The Scorpion and the Frog

One day, a scorpion looked around at the mountain where he lived and decided that he wanted a change. So he set out on a journey through the forests and hills. He climbed over rocks and under vines and kept going until he reached a river.
The river was wide and swift, and the scorpion stopped to reconsider the situation. He couldn't see any way across. So he ran upriver and then checked downriver, all the while thinking that he might have to turn back.

Suddenly, he saw a frog sitting in the rushes by the bank of the stream on the other side of the river. He decided to ask the frog for help getting across the stream.

"Hellooo Mr. Frog!" called the scorpion across the water, "Would you be so kind as to give me a ride on your back across the river?"

"Well now, Mr. Scorpion! How do I know that if I try to help you, you wont try to kill me?" asked the frog hesitantly.

"Because," the scorpion replied, "If I try to kill you, then I would die too, for you see I cannot swim!"

Now this seemed to make sense to the frog. But he asked. "What about when I get close to the bank? You could still try to kill me and get back to the shore!"

"This is true," agreed the scorpion, "But then I wouldn't be able to get to the other side of the river!"

"Alright then...how do I know you wont just wait till we get to the other side and THEN kill me?" said the frog.

"Ahh...," crooned the scorpion, "Because you see, once you've taken me to the other side of this river, I will be so grateful for your help, that it would hardly be fair to reward you with death, now would it?!"

So the frog agreed to take the scorpion across the river. He swam over to the bank and settled himself near the mud to pick up his passenger. The scorpion crawled onto the frog's back, his sharp claws prickling into the frog's soft hide, and the frog slid into the river. The muddy water swirled around them, but the frog stayed near the surface so the scorpion would not drown. He kicked strongly through the first half of the stream, his flippers paddling wildly against the current.

Halfway across the river, the frog suddenly felt a sharp sting in his back and, out of the corner of his eye, saw the scorpion remove his stinger from the frog's back. A deadening numbness began to creep into his limbs.

"You fool!" croaked the frog, "Now we shall both die! Why on earth did you do that?"

The scorpion shrugged, and did a little jig on the drownings frog's back.

"I could not help myself. It is my nature."

Then they both sank into the muddy waters of the swiftly flowing river.



Codger
 
Codger_64 said:
It has a lot of simularities with the Schrade Cut Co. 8364 3/4 (3 9/16"), and the 81004 3/8Stg (3 7/8"), but my Schrade resouces have a gap from 1939-1949, this exact year, so since there is not an exact size match, I'd be hesitant to say the Carpenter's Special was definately made for them by Schrade, though the latter knife is illustrated with the same blade etch in 1938. The Schrade Cut Co. number of this 3 7/8" pattern was 804 in 1953, but the etch became Everlastingly Sharp. In none of these instances do the lengths match, nor did Schrade use that particular jigging style that I can see. So while there are some similarities with Schrade products, I'd be real hesitant to say it was a Schrade SFO. Did you have another maker in mind? Carpenter knives were a popular pattern for most makers of the early to mid twentieth century, and I don't know enough about the jig patterns to assign the Western 6346 to any other cutler with any degree of certainty.

Are you seeing something I am missing?
Codger


The point I was making is that it looks to me like an illustation of a Schrade made knife, incluidng the jigging as illustrateed which to me resembles Schrade's jigging stlye from the 1950's era. Note that the jiggin pattern on the illustrated knife differs significantly from the jigged bone handles on the stockman patterns and others illustrated. As far as the closed length, may time the older catalogs showed a "nominal" length which may have been plus or minus up to 1/8".

I am speculating that Schrade may have made this pattern on contract for Western in that time period. Western did though make their own version of this pattern as I have seen and owned them, different tooling as compared to the Schrade and with handles that look like Rogers bone.
 
Ah Codger...you are quite the yarnspinner. :D

Some excellent information here... :thumbup: :thumbup: ...thanks for posting it.

I believe Coleman owned Western between 1984-1990. Camillus bought the Trademark from some investors(?) in 1991, IIRC.

Bill
 
Here are a couple of Westerns. Not really old, but just nice knives, IMHO.

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The fixed blade L66 was made in 1980...the FOLDING 445, well I don't really know, but I'll guess between 1978-1984.

Fun thread...:thumbup:

Bill
 
I noticed the "Black Beauty" Combo in the materials above. Here is mine in wood...feels like it's impregnated with a plastic or resin of some type. Funny sidenote...the knife was made in 1979...the axe in 1980.

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Just tryin' to contribute a bit.

Bill
 
Thanks for the fine contributions too. Your pictures (and your knives) are always great, and I know you know more about Western Cutlery history than you are telling. History? Did someone say HISTORY? Well...alrighty then! Here is a condensed verson of Western history with a factoid or three thrown in for good measure!

Western Cutlery History

Many sources cite 1896 as a beginning date for Western Cutlery, but research shows that the real date was in 1911. I think a part of the confusion over these dates has to do with the father, sons, and grandsons involved in the cutlery manufacturing trade for so many years, and Western's own claim for this date bolstered by the new owner's literature.

Charles W. Platts was born in Sheffield England in 1838, and entered the cutlery field at an early age, as had his own father and grandfather, Platts’ name being found on guild registries there back to the 1600's.

In 1866, having completed apprenticeship and being ready to become a superintendent, he emigrated to America, landing the superintendent position with the Northfield Knife Co. In Northfield, Conn. Eventually, all five of his sons worked there under his supervision.

In 1894, he moved to Little Valley, New York, following his second oldest son, H. N. Platts who had moved there a few years earlier and became foreman of the grinding and finishing department of a local knife company. His father became superintendent.

Soon they decided to start their own cutlery manufactory, and in 1896 began making the C. Platts and Sons brand in a building in nearby Gowanda, New York.

Because of good sales, they quickly outgrew their building and moved to Eldred, Pennsylvania in 1897. Again, they were successful, but in about 1900, Charles Platts died, and the name was changed to C. Platts’ Sons.

In 1905, H. N. Platts bought out his brothers and moved the company to Bradford, Pennsylvania, combining with his wife’s family’s cutlery.

He sold his interest in 1911 and moved once again, this time to Boulder, Colorado, a town of about 9,000 people.

In 1907, three of the remaining brothers, Charles Jr., Joe, and Frank opened Platt’s Bros. Cutlery Co. In Andover, New York, and ceased operations in 1911.

45 year old H. N. Platts did well in Boulder, naming his new company Western States Cutlery and Manufacturing Co., and locating in a new two story brick building he built at 12th and Marine streets. Soon a second larger building was built adjacent to the first, but seperated by a railroad track.

The main product line was pocket knives until circa 1928, when soonafter Harlow C. Platts patent was filed for the split tang fixed blade knives. The L44 was one of the first, having the aluminum knob pommel, soon replaced by what we now call the birds head pommel. Personally, I always thought it was adapted from the shape of a saddle horn. The West-Cut mark also appeared in the early thirties.

During WWII, Western’s largest contracts were for their 6490 Campers Pocket Knife, though the also made a quantity of L61 fixed blades for the Navy, as well as some of the floating “Lifeboat” knives for the Navy and Army Air Corps.

One unique and interesting thing about the Western factory, they produced their own electrical power using diesel generators from circa 1940-‘50. During the 1940's, the Western logo was changed from the buffalo skull which had been in use since 1911, to the rope style script we are now familiar with.

In 1956 the company name was shortened to Western Cutlery Co., and in 1957 they moved to a new facility on Western Avenue in the new industrial district. Western Cutlery moved from Boulder to Longmont, CO. in 1978, and became Coleman-Western in 1984. In 1991, Camillus bought Western Cutlery.
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Codger - ranting as usual!:D
 
Great stuff as usual Codger! :thumbup:

I picked up a Western 656, 3-3/8" whittler pattern, a while back. Nice carbon steel. I like is so much it is my EDC when I want a smaller knife that doesn't scare the sheeple. :D

I don't see many around, but I did find a Western Coleman last year for my son for his 21st birthday. He loves it.

Dale
 
Codger 64
The posting of the old Western literature is very interesting. Many of these items I have never seen. Camillus did acquire some original Western catalogs in 1991 but they only date back to 1960.
Camillus did make some folding knives for Western. Western produced three fixed blade knives for Camillus (models #1006, #1007 and #1008).

Tom Williams
 
You can copy/save these into your picture files on your computer. I'd e-mail full scans, but I am on dialup, and it takes 20-30 minutes to send just one!

Codger
 
My "new" Western L-88 arrived today, and the first thing I did was compare it to my Marbles Woodcraft (circa 1916-34). My apologies for not having a camera that is usable for knife pics, the flat scanner is my only option at the moment.



The Western is on top, Marbles on bottom. As you can see, while there are some common lines, there are also some noticable differences between the Marbles, and the later Western. Besides the different pommel and their attachment means, and the hidden tang vs. patent bifuricated Platts tang, the actual blade swedges and profiles differ. The choils are different. The thumb grooves are different, guards are not exactly the same, and the spacer type and sequences are not the same. The stacked leather handles even have diffferent profiles, subtle, but quite noticable in the hand. As for the blades, the Marbles has a secondary bevel that the more fully flat ground Western lacks, making the Woodcraft a thicker blade through more of it's height, stiffer, and the Western thinner near it's edge, less binding in a cut.

Obviously the Western is longer, 8 3/4" OA compared to the 8 1/4 of the Woodcraft. Is one better than the other? One has survived use for seventy years or more, and the other for only thirty to fifty so far, but both are as usable today, scratches and all, as they were when new. Not bad for a pair of antique carbon steel hunting knives over a half century down the road!

Codger
 
Here are my only westerns, I have gotten all three within the past 2 months. From what I understand the lockblade (542) is fairly scarce.
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Take Care
M_M
 
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