In regards to failure phenomena

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Welcome to the board, Dirk:)
Always nice to see some new folks around. Pull up a chair and hang out:)
 
I'd also like to chime in regarding the current quality of HI compared to that of the quality in the past... I see no difference at all. Seriously and in all honesty, short of a few cosmetic changes that help to date the piece as well as a few telltale flourishes that help identify the kami's style I have seen no difference in fit, finish, or performance between my 10 year old blades and 10 week old blades.

They all tend to hold up to the same kinds of abuse to the same level. They all seem to need to be sharpened around the same time with heavy use. They all seem to have fantastic fit to the handles, bolsters, and butt plates. Conversely, I've never had one that didn't ding when I smacked it into a rock. Basically, if I do my part of making sure that I mind my technique and make sure that what I am chopping is just wood, then I expect my HI khuk to last me several trouble-free lifetimes. That said, EVERY khuk that enters my using rotation gets the Uncle Bill spine/flats whack test as well as several minutes of super-sloppy chops to detect any potential chips.

I think we're all on the same page here. HI khuks are incredibly tough, but I have guys on my payroll that could break a 4' 30lb cheater bar if I gave them enough time. I think a lot of the perceived issues with the quality goes back to how the warranty has had to be modified. Back with Uncle Bill was in charge, it was easy to say "If you can ever break this knife, then I'll replace it at no cost to you". Flash forward several years, and there are now more ways than ever to screw HI over in order to abuse the warranty. Thank Ebay for that one.
 
I own(ed) 20 or so HI Blades. Ive bought 10+ in the last year from Auntie and I have many older models from private parties. I have used every single one of them for chopping whether they were rated for it or not and all but one have passed this test without issue. The only blade I have that rolled was a WWII and that was due to my error. I dont try to chop steel, rock, concrete or anything else they are not designed for. I have a toolbox full of sledgehammers and chisels for that.

I'm not saying that your HI wont break under normal useage (any tool can) but if it does Auntie will take care of you.

If you want to chop through metal all day buy a Busse Combat blade for $500+ dollars, but from time to time even Busse blades break.
 
Steely_Gunz said:
..... I think a lot of the perceived issues with the quality goes back to how the warranty has had to be modified. Back with Uncle Bill was in charge, it was easy to say "If you can ever break this knife, then I'll replace it at no cost to you". Flash forward several years, and there are now more ways than ever to screw HI over in order to abuse the warranty. Thank Ebay for that one.
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I agree, the question is how to restore the original warranty without bringing down the store. Why should the buyer be penalized because you have allowed yourself to be "screwed over" by somebody on "Ebay"? Clearly, the loss of warranty coverage is a tangible and quantifiable product degregation, even if arguably the physical product remains otherwise essentially the same. Given a choice, I would suggest keeping the warranty and the quality, even if it means raising the price.

n2s
 
I'm real new to HI's also. I started on BladeForum to research an old Randall Made knife I lucked into and a friend pointed me in BFC's direction. I had then mentioned that I was looking for something to clear brush and to limb some pine trees I had and had been contemplating some type of machete. He suggested the HI forum as he had gotten a HI khuk and loved it. IIRC, I posted and asked some questions and my first purchase was a 16" CAK from the HI site. It does everything I want and need. I've since lucked into a couple of the DOTD's and watch for them to see if there are any that catch my attention and if I'm quick enough to snag it.

As for the quality, I have not had any problems with mine and I've used my CAK pretty heavily. I keep it sharp, but like an axe profile (convex) not a hollow ground or 20-25 degree knife edge and it works fine. I will show them off to people that come to my shop (I'm a part time gunsmith) and I've found there are a number of people in my area that have and use khuks regularly.

I never really knew that there had been any quality questions with the HI's until I read this thread but in my case, I have no complaints at all. I'm looking forward to purchasing more different blades from HI in the future and have no problems telling people to buy HI's quality products.
 
not2sharp said:
I agree, the question is how to restore the original warranty without bringing down the store. Why should the buyer be penalized because you have allowed yourself to be "screwed over" by somebody on "Ebay"? Clearly, the loss of warranty coverage is a tangible and quantifiable product degregation, even if arguably the physical product remains otherwise essentially the same. Given a choice, I would suggest keeping the warranty and the quality, even if it means raising the price.

n2s
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n2n, the problem is not the quality of the work. That has remained the same across the board. The problem is that due to unscrupulous people using a loophole, Yangdu has been forced to adapt the warranty to something much more modern than the warm and fuzzy "handshake" that Uncle Bill was able to offer. The problem that HI was running into was that people were selling used khuks on auction sites, people were buying them at a fraction of what they sold for (plus none of that secondary income went into HI's pocket), then there people would take the used knife and break it with a vice and cheater bar. HI's warranty would cover that even though it was not fair. The warranty is still very, very good as your knife is guaranteed for life. Yangdu still tends to err on the side of giving the customer the benefit of the doubt.

The quality is the exact the same. It's just that HI was forced to adapt with the times and amend their "break it and get two free" policy because of abuse. Because of that, some folks read too much into the warranty and think that HI is covering up quality issues with legal lingo when all it is saying is that you should only used knives DESIGNED to be heavy choppers as heavy choppers and that the warranty is now exclusive to the original owner. That's it.
 
Steely_Gunz said:
n2n, the problem is not the quality of the work. That has remained the same across the board. The problem is that due to unscrupulous people using a loophole, Yangdu has been forced to adapt the warranty to something much more modern than the warm and fuzzy "handshake" that Uncle Bill was able to offer. The problem that HI was running into was that people were selling used khuks on auction sites, people were buying them at a fraction of what they sold for (plus none of that secondary income went into HI's pocket), then there people would take the used knife and break it with a vice and cheater bar. HI's warranty would cover that even though it was not fair. The warranty is still very, very good as your knife is guaranteed for life. Yangdu still tends to err on the side of giving the customer the benefit of the doubt.

The quality is the exact the same. It's just that HI was forced to adapt with the times and amend their "break it and get two free" policy because of abuse. Because of that, some folks read too much into the warranty and think that HI is covering up quality issues with legal lingo when all it is saying is that you should only used knives DESIGNED to be heavy choppers as heavy choppers and that the warranty is now exclusive to the original owner. That's it.
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That sounds reasonable. Although, I would suggest either extending the same coverage to all of the knives, as HI previously used to do, or eliminating/redesigning whichever knives are too fragile to be marked with the HI brand name. You do not want the brand name tarnished by failing blades, irregardless of the warranty issue.

n2s
 
I am really glad that this thread was created because it actually cleared up quite a bit for me.

I was going to order a Farmknife and possibly a matching M-43 silver hardware from Tirtha Kami, a while back, I think I might have to do that when I get some funds together again.

It sucks that dirty and greedy people can cause those kinds of problems for a longstanding outfit like HI.

Karda should I shoot you or Yangdu a Email or PM to talk about a price, and a estimated delivery time if I order ?
 
I can understand that, n2s:thumbup:

I suppose it also comes down to what the customer wants. Take the Farm Knife. They wanted a heavy, razor sharp cleaver. It's a 1.5lb knife with a very fine edge. It's good for slashing, chopping, and would be vicious in a fight. However, if one were to take it to seasoned oak and start torquing their chops, it's probably going to deform or break out that edge.

Who is at fault? The kami for making it to spec? The customers (myself included on that list) who demanded it? HI for producing it? The user with poor technique? If HI just stuck to the stuff you find on the shop page, they would probably be OK. It' would be a world of AKs, BAS', Sirus, and WWIIs...and that's about it. HI makes what the folks want. Folks just need to understand that their are probably going to be limitations to some of these very cool designs.
 
Silverthorn said:
Karda should I shoot you or Yangdu a Email or PM to talk about a price, and a estimated delivery time if I order ?
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Yangdu handles the ordering/special orders end, Sil. I'm just the question/answer/traffic director.

I'd like to add to Steelys statement about the warranty. The part about Modified blade/edges part came about because some people were sharpening the snot outta these things with power equipment and compromising the edges, but also using the blade up in less than 1/2 it's lifetime and wanting a new one given to them because of the lifetime warranty. As i stated previously, the whole warranty thing was to have clear expectations by all to practice responsible khukuri usage and care.
The reason we still sell various special models that arent listed is because they are popular items and people request them.
It should be understood, though, that unless it's on the list for field usage, it's not warranted for heavy chopping of wood.
The others are general usage, suitable for lighter stuff and tasks you would normally use a knife for.
Then the rest are decorative/collectible pieces that are for show. They are designated by premium materials, carvings, inlays, silver fittings and other ornateness. All are built to H.I.'s specs for finish and toughness, but some cannot be warranted for hard usage due to expense of materials and workmanship. All in All the warranty is just modified so that common sense is foremost.
 
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I would like to respectfully reply to a comment supra. I do not feel that different warranties imply failure or fragility. Rare indeed, if ever, is the instrument or mechanism that excels at all things contemplated in its gross category without fear of compromise. By analogy, and I admit the hyperbole, the .17 rimfire is one of the most popular and successful firearm developments in past years. It does some things as well or better than any other product. But, if used against ursus horribilus, the results would be less than favorable, but I submit that the failure was the misapplication and not the device.
 
I am quite new to these blades. I purchased a dui chirra (by Vim) a few months ago. It was and is well-made and quite wonderful. However, as noted in an earlier post of mine, someone badly abused it. Although the abuse flowed from ignorance and negligence rather than an evil heart, the person was, to say the least, admonished, and we will that at that. The point: The blade was struck with some force, while slashing shrub and overgrowth, into wood beams under the vegetation. That is not so bad: What is bad is that the hidden wood had hidden metal corners, bracing, and scroll-work. Metal against metal, several times, with a vigor found only in strong teenagers.

However, the blade did not fail. Very small scallops in the edge, repaired very quickly (for free!) by a forum member with the right basic tools. No catastrophic failure that would have been expected with the abuse. That is well-made steel.

I now have a 16.5 CAk (by Bakkta? Bow and arrow). I got this design because I wanted a vigorous blade, and could save the dui chirra for lighter work more in line with its design. I chopped vegetation, I made tomato poles and stakes, I processed wood, I chopped maple and seasoned magnolia with some urgency. After a lot of this work, one could feel the SLIGHTEST rolled edge with one's fingernail, which I promptly straightened with a steel included with the dui chirra. Although not razor sharp (needs a stropping, and I do not want it too razorish), it is sharp and does its works well. Again, well-made steel.

This data is anecdotal and not dispositive of the issue of a QC trend. Mistakes do happen. But, I am happy with my purchases, I trust these instruments, and I would recommend the product to friends and family.
 
Your English greatly intrigues me, Sir!
Is there a story behind it, if it is not too personal of a question, of course?


cwdotson said:
I am quite new to these blades. I purchased a dui chirra (by Vim) a few months ago. It was and is well-made and quite wonderful. However, as noted in an earlier post of mine, someone badly abused it. Although the abuse flowed from ignorance and negligence rather than an evil heart, the person was, to say the least, admonished, and we will that at that. The point: The blade was struck with some force, while slashing shrub and overgrowth, into wood beams under the vegetation. That is not so bad: What is bad is that the hidden wood had hidden metal corners, bracing, and scroll-work. Metal against metal, several times, with a vigor found only in strong teenagers.

However, the blade did not fail. Very small scallops in the edge, repaired very quickly (for free!) by a forum member with the right basic tools. No catastrophic failure that would have been expected with the abuse. That is well-made steel.

I now have a 16.5 CAk (by Bakkta? Bow and arrow). I got this design because I wanted a vigorous blade, and could save the dui chirra for lighter work more in line with its design. I chopped vegetation, I made tomato poles and stakes, I processed wood, I chopped maple and seasoned magnolia with some urgency. After a lot of this work, one could feel the SLIGHTEST rolled edge with one's fingernail, which I promptly straightened with a steel included with the dui chirra. Although not razor sharp (needs a stropping, and I do not want it too razorish), it is sharp and does its works well. Again, well-made steel.

This data is anecdotal and not dispositive of the issue of a QC trend. Mistakes do happen. But, I am happy with my purchases, I trust these instruments, and I would recommend the product to friends and family.
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I meant to write "we will leave that at that" but omitted the word "leave." Otherwise, and I am not being snide, what is it about the wording?
 
It is nothing in particular really, just... all of it: word choice, syntax, grammar, punctuation, etc. It is just that I have never met anyone who speaks quite like this in the States or in Canada, so I assumed that you are either from somewhere else or are a classically trained professional writer/editor, etc. and couldn't help myself but ask out of curiosity. I, for one, find your style a welcome change from the usual poor English on the intertubes, though this little forum is quite rich with wordsmiths and avid readers (of not just zombie literature).
Cheers :)





cwdotson said:
I meant to write "we will leave that at that" but omitted the word "leave." Otherwise, and I am not being snide, what is it about the wording?
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My 2 cents.....
I have always been very satified with anything I purchase form Uncle Bill (God rest him) and Auntie Yangdu. Some are for collecting some were purchased for use. Any khukuri I ever bought as a "user" has not failed me. Anytime, which was maybe once, that I had an "issue" with something Uncle Bill and Auntie Yangdu corrected things quickly, fairly and without hesitation.
I continue to recommend HI khukuris to anyone who asks me for advise on where to buy a "good" khukuri and will continue to do so.
I have worked in QA in the firearms industry for many years.....sometimes things "get through" it happens. There may have been an isolated "batch" of khukris with hardness issues that "got though" but it speaks well that HI is not trying to "cover anything up" (I feel) and are "standing behind" their products. I trust them, I will continue to do business with them as I have done for many years (as time and money allows) and recommend them wothout question to all who ask my opinion.
 
I read an interesting explanation of certain edge chipping phenomina a while back, in specific regard to the "Unsupported Chopping Phenomenon". I don't recall precisely where I saw it, but I'll try to summarize.

Picture, if you will, a piece of hard, flexible dowel rod, supported vertically from the ground. The base at ground-level is firmly fixed into place, the top is left free in the air. Into this semi-supported rod, a sharp-edged tool is swung, with the flat of the blade parallel to the ground, and the edge striking into the test material at precisely tangent to it's surface. At the instant of impact, the momentum of the rod holds it into place, while the edge begins to bite into the material. After a certain amount of penetration, (the actual amount dictated by the material being cut, the mass of the vertical rod and the geometry of the edge), the momentum holding the rod vertical is overcome by the force striking into it. At this point, the rod begins to lean in a direction that exactly mirrors the direction of the impacting tool. However, the rod is NOT free to follow the edge's path. Since the rod is held fixed at it's lower end, the path that the cut notch describes is an arc, with radius equal to the distance from the base, to the impact point. The edge of the blade, not so constrained, continues on it's straight-line path. So now, the condition is one such that a small portion of the blade is lodged in the rod, which is now moving in a DIFFERENT direction than the body of the blade itself. This torsional force will continue to increase until one of the following occurs:

1: The side of the notch holding the blade edge into place fails, releasing the edge.

2: The momentum of the blade is spent, and the spring of the rod slowly returns both blade and rod to the pre-impact position.

3: The edge fails under the torsional force, and creates a chip.

In slightly less complex terms, picture slamming a knife edge into a piece of wood, holding it there, then twisting the knife handle as hard as you can. MOST of the time, the wood will split and tear. But some times, the wood will hold firm, and the edge of the blade will snap.

A special example of this would be the fellow a while back who attempted to chop through a deer's leg bone, with the leg hanging unsupported in the air. The edge easily bit into the bone (which is made of what is effectively living STONE) but a very small portion of the edge was then held extremely tightly, while the cumulative leverage of the leg bone from the joint down to the impact point was applied as a massive twist to the edge of the blade. Which predictably failed. Had he placed that SAME bone over a firm backing, say a stump, and struck downward into a supported backing, there would have been no twisting at the edge, and the blade's entire momentum would have been spent penetrating the material to be cut. The edge would likely STILL have been damaged (since bone is absurdly hard) but it would have been impaction damage, not torsional chipping.
 
See what happens when you allow physicists and engtineers in the forum?

This analysis implies that when you chop something flexible, such as a sapling, that is anchored/rooted at the bottom, you should angle your cut downward to minimize lateral movement of the target (as well as going at least partly with the grain). Luckily, that's what people usually do, since it's easier and more natural to cut downward than horizontally.

Now I wonder when someone is going to bring the Higgs boson into the discussion? Oops, I just did.

-- Dave
 
Guilty as charged on the engineering side. :D Have to reiterate, though, that this was not my analysis work, just my re-writing of someone else's that made sense to me from a mechanics standpoint.

On a flexible object, a cut as close as possible to parallel to the support (either toward OR away from) also allows much more of the tool's energy to be transferred to the medium to be cut, since there is then resistance aside from the spring of the object. Think bending a sapling to the side, then grabbing it and trying to shove it down into the ground. Which is easier? In this case, the more resistance offered, the better the edge will bite and the more you will be able to take advantage of the huge amount of momentum the heavy blade has. Of course, there is a point of diminishing returns here, when the amount of material to cut through becomes too great, and requires more energy than the blade is carrying. IE, it's not useably more efficient to slice through a 1" sapling at a 80-degree angle from the vertical, even if it WOULD more effectively use the blade's stored energy.
 
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