In your opinion, is a knife a tool first or a weapon?

By definition, a knife is a tool. It may be designed to be a weapon (for example the dagger), but it is not, as far, the most efficient device for this purpose…

An iron can also be used as a weapon. It is, in France, the object that is the most used for wound (seriously) or kill somebody… until now, it was the rolling pin. :D
 
Louky:
"By definition, a knife is a tool"

In the US, knives fall under dangerous "weapons", by lawful definition. As such there are restrictions of some type in place within the states laws relative the "knife".

Merriam-Websters dictionary does not mention, in several categories, that a knife is a tool as well. They call it an "instrument" in several of the variations and explanations but not once do they use the term tool.

So we have the courts describing them as weapons and putting them in weapons categories in the law and we have the dictionary calling it an instrument. Neither use the word "tool" however.

In France, it may be a tool but in the US it is not considered such by the two authorities mentioned above.

Where in France did you find the "knife" defined as a tool?

Just an FYI

Brownie
 
Tool first and foremost. EVERY time i take a pocketknife out at school, I teach 7th grade science, the kids will say "that's a wepon" whereupon my response will ALWAYS be "no, it's a tool". Guess it is your perspective.
 
Definitely a tool. In Puerto Rico the slang to describe a lacy individual is
“ No da un tajo” translation “Doesn’t give a cut”, and many years ago if a guy went to the girlfriend’s house the father would ask “ Es usted bueno de corte” translation “Are you proficient at cutting”. This goes back to the days when sugar cane was cut by hand for the production of “Ron” rum, and tobacco and coffee were the foundation of the economy. If you didn’t “cut” you were unemployed and you were not a “skilful cutter” you wouldn’t make enough money and wouldn’t be able to support a family. Yes, knives are primarily tools.
 
Brownie :

I open my French “Larousse” dictionary and the knife definition is : cutting instrument composed by a blade and a handle (instrument tranchant composé d’une lame et d’un manche). But the first instrument definition is : tool…

If you want, for us, the difference between an instrument and a tool is the making complexity. There are scientific instruments, surgical instruments, measurement instruments, it means a tool composed by many parts or a state of the art tool (which require a high savoir-faire level to produce it). But we don’t use the “instrument” term to describe a weapon, we say weapon system (système d’armes) or simply the word “object”.

In addition, the word “knife” is absent of all the French weapons law [the “dagger-knife” is mentioned, but it is a reference to the French trench knife (couteau-poignard modèle 1916…)]. ;)
 
Louky,

I appreciate the info provided from Fance.

Very interesting how countries define and use terms in different parts of the world.

Can you provide, if possible, the exact language in Frances weapons laws and do you know or can you provide info whether they vary by region or are universal to the country?

I would be very interested in how the french view knives in general and more specifically relative when they may or not be considered a weapon. Any restrictions on length etc as well would be most welcome to know as well.

Thanks for the reply and edification from your area.

Brownie
 
In France, wherever you live or whoever you are, all the laws are the same : it is one of our constitutional principles.

[There are some regional laws, but they are only a few and very exceptional. Per example, there is a law in Alsace (the border region with Germany) which allow the state to remunerate the Priests. It is forbidden in the rest of France because it is a lay (? without religion) state. It is an old German law, which was lasting after the 1870-1914 occupation.]

If you are older than 18, you are allowed to buy and to own all the edged items you want. Swords, axes, fixed blade knives, balisongs, switchblade knives, spears… even in large quantities, there is no restriction.

The carry law is a little bit more complicated. You are “not allowed to carry any object which can be a danger for the public safety without a good reason” (tout objet constituant un danger pour la sécurité publique sans motif légitime). The knife is not the principal consideration, but the place you walk is also very important.

It is vague, but the two extreme examples will clarify the idea. If I am going in the fields for camping, hunting or hiking, I’m allowed to carry everything I want. My Ka-Bar USMC isn’t a danger for public safety : there is no public (or only a few peoples and if they are afraid of my knife, it is their problem… but it is another story…). If I’m going to a soccer match with 40000 other supporters, I’m not allowed to carry anything.

Between these two situations, it depends on the LEO appreciation. You simply have to be reasonable (don’t carry a 6” CS Voyager (my next purchase… :p ) in the city), be polite with the policeman and explain him you carry your knife because of your job (never speak about SD !!!). I never had any problems with my small Sebenza, my Spyderco Endura or my Benchmade CQC7. It will be more difficult to explain why you are carrying a hammer !!!

Oh, a last thing. There is an exception : wherever you are a Laguiole can never be considered dangerous because this knife is a traditional French item (it is a legal precedent) so if you want, you can carry a 6” bladed Laguiole everywhere !

I hope my post is understandable… I also hope I answer your questions.
Have a nice day ! ;)
 
Guess it is your perspective.

Ain't that the truth. Why do some people look at a knife as a weopon and some as a tool? I've noticed that people who perceive knives primarily as weapons are people who tend to be afraid in general. For example, When I moved to New York City, I once had a girlfriend who grew up in Queens and then lived in Manhattan. When I suggested we go camping in Connecticut she was reluctant. When we actually went she couldn't sleep because she was so afraid of being attacked. There wasn't another soul around for ten miles. But she was afraid. She felt comfortable on a crowded street full of strangers but she was afraid of sleeping in a tent in the woods.

On the other hand, she knew more about dead bolt locks than I knew about firearms. She knew which ones were the hardest to pick or kick in, and she removed and re-installed her own lock when she changed apartments, which was often every year or two. She felt threatened by pocket knives and wouldn't go near a target pistol.

I think many people perceive threat differently than others. Even governments and law enforcement tend to categorize based on perceived threat, I believe.
 
The threats are out there everywhere and you may need to use what you have with you to save your life or at least defend it someday. If you don't believe threats are real, read any paper in the US on any day. Stories abound about assaults, thefts, muggings, etc ad nauseum.

I carry an SAK as a tool to do daily chores of cutting things. I also carry a dedicated self defense folder for all of the above potentials.

"I've noticed that people who perceive knives primarily as weapons are people who tend to be afraid in general". Really? I have just the opposite observations. Most who carry a knife for self defense that I know are not so much afraid but are realistic in the outlook of their fellow man to be civil and not want to hurt them at any opportuntiy that presents itself [ which is not the case ].

Brownie
 
It's what you intend on using it for. If you carry an object for self-defence, then it's a weapon. If not, then it's probably a tool.

Just about anything can be considered a "weapon" in a court. I've heard of someone being charged with assault with a deadly weapon for kicking someone with cowboy boots (that is, the kicker was wearing the boots, not the kickee).

If someone is swinging a golf club or baseball bat, and he's at a golf course or a baseball field, then it's a tool. If someone's swinging a golf club or baseball bat walking down the sidewalk, it's a weapon. If someone's using a knife to cut some packaging cord or open a letter, it's a tool. If he's using it on a person, it's a weapon. Not that hard to understand.

A gun however, is quite different. Apart from hunting or target guns (tools or toys, respectively), a gun is a weapon. It has no mundane, every day usage other than to shoot bullets. In no way can it be considered a tool. That isn't to say that I'm anti-gun. Whenever I can get the scratch, I'll be getting a gun and CCW permit. But a gun is a weapon, and a knife is a tool unless I intend to use it as a weapon (which, if I have a gun, I probably wouldn't).

On the subject of weapons and self-defence, in a dire situation I would hope other people would consider a knife as a weapon. At all times I either have my Fer-De-Lance auto or Benchmade Balisong, so I hope that if really necessary, I could whip out my blade and put some fear in an attacker. And hopefully the spinning bali would take his eyes away from the yellow pool growing at my feet.

Other people though may ask why I carry a "weapon". I ask them if they'd feel safer if it were a Swiss Army Knife. Almost invariably they'd say "yes", wo which I'd reply "why?". Make them think about it and hopefully they'll realize the illogic of their fears.
 
Planterz said:
Other people though may ask why I carry a "weapon". I ask them if they'd feel safer if it were a Swiss Army Knife. Almost invariably they'd say "yes",
Click to expand...

where I live, the answer to that is often "No" :grumpy:

A couple of years ago, I went to see off a couple of very good friends who were travelling to Thailand for a couple of months. Nice, laid back guys you could always rely on.

When I asked if they had a knife, one of them showed me a cheap, blunt dirty, SwissChamp knockoff, so I immediately offered them my Calypso Jr. They took one look at it and said 'no, we might/don't want to get into trouble'. -- I was shocked by their lack of perspective or understanding as to the usefulness of a knife and the nature of weapons. I thought they were sheeple at that moment.

fast forward a couple of years, and look at them now. there were several occasions when they got so off their heads in thailand that they ended up fighting each other, sometimes using weapons. one of them gets into fights regularly, the other gets so highly strung that he nearly took me (with a weapon) out when I came into the house one night he wasn't expecting me. a third starts any fight he can over the stupidest thing.

They saw that knife as a weapon because to them it is.

another guy used to date a friend of mine, among the things she told him were that I carry a knife, and also that I do kung fu. 2+2 = 5
He spent a alot of time questioning me about why I carry a knife, why I do kung fu, and that I have 'issues'. He genuinely couldn't understand it. He was also paraniod about many things, inlcuding his relationship with the girl, which eventually crumbled for this reason.

My point is that often, when people are critical, the FIRST thing they criticise (or the one that they see as most important) is often thier own problem. They project their flaws onto you (or the knife).

If you were to show someone a knife and ask 'weapon or tool', I reckon that the people who said weapon could be broken down into two categories:

people who 'use' weapons, such as criminals, police, security, martial artists, citizens who take a proactive approach to personal safety; sometimes these are the guys who talk about how to take someone out with a bottle of exfoliating facial scrub (not tested on animals, of course) or use it to hijack a plane - they are the ones who don't let you take you nail clippers on holiday because their approach is: How can I use this as a weapon? The answer to this sort of question always implies that it can be used as a weapon, this mentality leads to the conclusion that everything is -- NOT JUST KNIVES!!!

and people who predominantly 'fear' weapons, typically victims, 'sheep', concerned parents, etc. They DON'T think of organic exfoliating facial scrub as a weapon be because THEY ARE NOT AWARE of its devastating power - they are people who will happily buy weed killer, fertiliser, firelighters, pots pans, yard broom, mothballs, golf club, shovel and who don't jump out of their skins when they see someone else with these things because THEY ARE NOT AWARE that they can be (and are) used as weapons. They ARE aware that knives can be used as weapons, because of their prevalence in movies, and dramatic publicity pictures of real (usually facial) injuries. (facial injuries create acute fear because they mess with our sense of identity and the way in which we relate to the outside world).

Both of these categories are led by fear. The only difference between the two is EMPOWERMENT although sometimes people will fall in both groups. I fall in the first category and I can honestly tell you my primary motivation for doing martial arts is fear - I'm not afraid now, but that's a different matter and it may be the reason I am in the 'tool' camp. I don't rely on knives for my defence and I don't fear their use against me (not saying I'm impervious here!). I know they CAN be used as weapons, but I maintain that they are not, intrinsically, weapons (with the exception of purpose made designs).

Brownie:

With reference to a point you made earlier, just because the courts or legislature have defined some or all knives as weapons doesn't mean that they are. There are many examples of legal definitions being different from real world linguistic or scientific definitions, insanity being a good example. What is more, these laws are often put into place as a result of the 'democratic fallacy', the belief that the majority know better, :rolleyes: which they usually do not. However, you and I both live in democracies and have to live with the consequences of being ruled by people who are very good at exploiting the democratic fallacy. :barf:

The original question began with "In your opinion...". So while it may be wise to note the opinion of the courts (and also of certain groups of people noted above) I think it was looking for a more general answer.

The Conjuction Fallacy:

Some weapons are knives: therefore knives are weapons.

Looks like a logical statement - let's try another:

Some weapons are cars: therefore cars are weapons. Hmmmm... ?

(If you're in any doubt about cars being used as weapons, I have a friend who has had about five years worth of reconstructive surgery as a result of someone deliberately aiming a car at him and hitting the gas - not an accident, the car was a weapon)

Tools can be used as weapons. Some knives are, by design, weapons. Neither of these facts negates the simple fact that knives are tools.

After all, all weapons are tools anyway.
 
Nice point about prejection little claw. That's an aspect I hadn't considered but now you bring it in to the discussion it seems obvious.

I've always thought that some of my intellectual elite/greenie/politically correct friends are some of the most violent people I know. They react savagely to guns and knives because their dogma has supressed any natural expression of anger and violence so they project it on to others. They externalise it to the point that they objectify guns and knives as the cause.

But thats just me, I grew up in the bush where a punchup is sometimes considered healthy.
 
Knife = Lever + Wedge

It's a combination of 2 simple machines and nothing more. It's anything you care to use it for really.
 
I use knives as tools, whether it's opening letters or packages, preparing food, or defending myself, a knife is a tool. A knife can also be a weapon, so can a screwdriver, ice pick, hammer, tire iron, etc. Almost anything can be a weapon in the hands of someone who means to do harm with it.
 
As mentioned earlier, it's all about the user. A brick is just a brick, not really a tool or a weapon, that is until the user finds a use for it as such.
But as far as weapons go, I think it would be wise for makers, magazines and
knifeknuts alike to drop the "combat folder" talk & mentality, it just hurts us in the long run(strict laws, bans etc etc.) and doesn't really make a little black "fighting" folding knife any more of a weapon than a mundane run of the mill edc pocket knife anyways. More often than not makes them less useful for EDC tasks anyways, plus thesimple fact that ALL knife users get a bad rap,a terrible trade off IMHO just to boost the confidence of a handfull
of people with self confidence issues.

If your thinking of buying a POCKET KNIFE, and your main concerns are it's "tactical" properties, chances are you should be at a gunstore instead, either that or be shuffling through a catalogue with a selection of penis pumps.
 
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