In your opinion, the best steel for the money

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exia00

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Mar 15, 2010
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My father is trying to decide on a steel for his knife making projects. He has a heat treating oven, and a good amount of equipment. He just doesn't have much experience, but he doesn't want to use some of the "beginner" recommended steels like 1084 or O1. Even though they are fine steels, and can be found for a relatively cheap price. He doesn't have a big budget, but still would like to try and find something "better" than those, Aka like a higher toughness or better wear resistant steel. So I thought I would ask you guys what steel do you think is the best bang for your buck?
Thanks
 
I am actually on my first knife project myself. I bought a flat stock of 1095 on ebay for 16 bucks. It was cheap and the metal seems to be pretty nice. I found some advantages of it online.

high carbon content can correlate with brittleness, which explains why 1095 steel rarely becomes the choice for long or thin blades, either of which could accentuate this drawback catastrophically at inopportune times. That potential negative balances out with the positive side of high-carbon steel, namely its toughness and durability. Those attributes make 1095 steel a popular choice for rugged bushcrafting and survival knives, applications that rely on and require a hardy blade stock, and typically use thick fixed blades. High-carbon steels such as 1095 also show up in springs and saw blades, both of which benefit from its toughness, in bladed farm equipment, and in wire.

source: https://www.bladeops.com/Articles.asp?ID=282

From what I have heard it makes a pretty tough blade.
 
O1 has more alloying than 1095

Precision ground, soft to work with, flat, straight, consistent thickness
If he has an oven, he can wring the best out of it.

What's not to like ?
or
A2
 
There is no ONE best steel.

1084 is recommended to beginners because it is an excellent steel, not because it is a cheap steel. O-1 is also an excellent steel. Both will ( and do) produce top grade knives. What most other steels need to get the same results is experience.

I highly recommend your father start with 1084 or O-1 and make a couple dozen knives. Done well, these will be great knives. Then, if he wishes, he can experiment with 52100, 1095, stainless steels, etc. These steels won't necessarily make a better knife, but may have a particular attribute that works well for a certain task. For stainless steel, I recommend CPM-S35VN.
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
There is no ONE best steel.

1084 is recommended to beginners because it is an excellent steel, not because it is a cheap steel. O-1 is also an excellent steel. Both will ( and do) produce top grade knives. What most other steels need to get the same results is experience.

I highly recommend your father start with 1084 or O-1 and make a couple dozen knives. Done well, these will be great knives. Then, if he wishes, he can experiment with 52100, 1095, stainless steels, etc. These steels won't necessarily make a better knife, but may have a particular attribute that works well for a certain task. For stainless steel, I recommend CPM-S35VN.
Click to expand...
Does CPM-S35VN require cryo treatment?
 
Every steel choice is a compromise. You're coming at this from the wrong angle. The steel doesn't define the knife, the knife defines the steel. There are no "beginner" steels. Some are easier to produce a quality blade with, but they're not training wheels. They're not substandard. Some of the finest knives being made right now are 1075. Design the knife, then choose the steel best suited to it's purpose.
 
AEB-L is a very good choice, available up to ~.200 thick. Fairly easy to heat treat.

The m7c3 carbides are as hard as tungsten carbides, the matrix has enough chrome in it to make it stainless and more wear resistant than simple carbon steels. Carbide volume is low enough to make it very tough.

The carbides are very small contributing to toughness and keenness.

Cost is low compared to other stainless steels. It's a good one.

Hoss
 
Hey guys, I just want to say thanks for all the posts so far, and Stacy I'm honored to have you answer my question. I agree totally with what's being said; that there isn't a magical best steel. That geometry, heat treat, & fit and finish are what make a knife. My Dad is new to it all and is doing the usual, he printed off Crucible's chart and is focused only on how O1 doesn't compare to CPM 3v or the like, based solely off of the graph. I understand real world that the graph is just a guide line. I agree also that 1084 and O1 are fantastic steels, and that he should focus more on making several and get his quality and ability to heat treat down. But, he just thinks why would I use those steels when these are "better". I've tried talking about the different trade offs, and have even showed him Knives from people like Fiddleback, G L Drew and more that use similar steels and make a fantastic knife. But he's pretty set on going with a "Super Steel", so I thought I would ask for options to try to help him make the most informed decision.


So, that's why I was asking for your opinions, and example would be Stacy you said that you like S35VN, but what made you choose it over M390, Elmax, CpmD2, CpmM4, or Cpm154? Or even a not super steel like 440C? What factors made it stand out to YOU? Anyways, sorry for the long post, just trying to give as much info as possible, and again thanks guys
 
It really depends on what type of blade you intend to make and how you will use it.
 
For higher alloy steels, the kiln is just one half of the equation. How does he plan to deal with retained austentite? High temper? Partial conversion with dry ice/acetone, or is he investing in a dewar and liquid nitrogen? If he needs explanation as to why this question is important, he's looking to run before he walks.

Secondly, it took me about 25 knives before I made one that wasn't obviously flawed, and nearly 200 before I thought they were well done.

Seriously, steel choice is the least important part of the process when starting out, as long as you are using a blade appropriate steel in the first place.
 
You say "he doesn't have much experience."

What does that mean? Has he made any knives? Here's the best reason he should start with 1084. His first knives are going to suck. And he's going to throw away a lot of money on abrasives and super steel if he starts with 3V and S35VN right out of the gate.

He's getting good advice here. He should take it. Otherwise, my advice is Rex 121. I mean 3v, 4v, 10v, 15v they're neat and all, but why not go for broke.

If you want to ask, "How do you choose which steel to use and when?" well, that's a better question and broader discussion.
 
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As you see, there is a lot to this, ... and a person who has no experience doesn't know what he doesn't know.
Starting with a steel that is tried and true, reliable in make-up from supplier to supplier, and fairly straightforward to HT isn't taking second best - It is being smart and getting the best possible results at that time. With time, reading, HT, and experience one will expand his range of steels he has the capacity to work with.

I started with basic carbon and low alloy steels - 5160, 1070, 1084, O-1 and 1095. I tried other steels after I got some HT experience and could reliably get good blades in the steels I was using. - W2, 52100, 80CrV, L-6, 15N20, etc. I now use a lot of W2, and Hitachi Japanese steels that are popular in the cutlery and Japanese blade market. I still keep 1084 and 80CrV or many simple knives and for teaching new smiths.

When I moved to stainless steels, I started with 440C. If I had never moved to another steel, my knives would still be good. I moved to 154CM/ATS34 and when Crucible made a particle steel version, to CPM 154. I stayed there for years because they produced great blades. I played with the "super steels", S30, S60, S90, and S120. All were good, but didn't really deliver much more for the extra cost. I chose S35VN after years of stainless steel knifemaking with CPM-154, after learning a lot more metallurgy and talking to metallurgists .... and Aldo. The knives made with it were great and had good edge life. I moved to CPM-S35VN for the extra edge life and toughness and higher working hardness. I think it provides all I want in a high end stainless steel. I also use AEB-L for some knives because it is cheaper and easy to HT. It allows me to make lower cost home and camp use blades that don't require high alloy attributes.

There are dozens of other choices for stainless steel, and most all make good blades - IF HTed TO THE BEST ADVANTAGE. In many cases, the best HT comes from sending it to a place like Peter's HT. If done at home it requires a good HT oven with a programmable controller, cryo tanks, quench plates, HT foil, etc. None of this comes cheap. I practiced HT until I could do CPM-S35VN with good results. I now send most of it to Peter's in larger batches because they can do 50 blades cheaper and faster than me doing it. Time is a big factor in that too.
 
A2 would be a good option if you want something air hardening yet affordable. It will make a surprisingly good blade if you do your part right.

I'm actually going through something similar myself. My dad is getting close to retirement and looking for something to do that combines his two favorite hobbies, woodworking and machining. I'm starting him out with a pair of fairly small 154cm kitchen knives.
I picked 154cm as it's a very good performing stainless, yet not as expensive (or hard on tooling) as the "super steels"
It's also something I've dealt with a fair bit, and am very comfortable heat treating.
The only reason I'm starting with a stainless is my dad already knows how to do every aspect of knifemaking (apart from bevel grinding) seperatly from his various other projects. And I'll be walking him through both flat grinding and hollow grinding on mild steel practice pieces, so he will know how to do it before grinding the expensive steel.

Unless your dad already has lots of shop experience, I'd recommend the way I learned. Apart from the very first few which were files and chainsaw bars, I learned working with 1070, and then moved onto O1.
1070, 1075, 1080, 1084, ect are all very cheap, and all capable of making very nice knives.
1084 is definitely better suited to torch or forge HT than the others, but if a kiln is available I don't see any reason not to use 1070 or 1080 either
 
For your dad - best steel (perhaps in first year knife making) is the one, he is capable of making great particular-type of knife out of it. Implies, skills+equipment are well-matched with steel's attributes toward intended uses and workability. New maker's stubbornness and eagerness often persuaded by allures of high alloy powder steels, where skills and equipments maybe insufficient to ensure good outcome. Skills which include understanding of blade and edge geometry, plus sharpening skills. Maybe I am re-telling my KM journey and possibly approach thing differently now ...

Assuming with good discipline and equipment (ht oven, belt grinder, drill press, etc..) + access to dry-ice (or LN2) and pick one blade profile to work+learn+ROI for the first 10 knives. I recommend bird&trout or parer profile - high utilities small knife. Certainly, ROI includes fun and excitement values.

Buy: 5 steels with approx dimension: 11.6" x 2.0" ~0.065-0.110" thick
* https://www.alphaknifesupply.com/shop/product-category/blade-materials
* 80CrV2, Cruwear, 10V/A11, Aeb-l, S90V = less than $85 shipped.
* you can make 2 full tang knives out of each bar

Make first 5 knives (5 steels) and then extensive tests (self and friends) - recommend 5 dps blade grind (degrees per side) and test with 15 dps sharpening edge geometry. Show+learn+ask here & there.

Make 2nd set of 5 knives with corrected/improvement and then rigorous test & seek advices/perspectives again.

I can fully empathize on scary aspect of chopping and torquing 15dps edge... don't worry - just tell people you are slowly turning first 10 blades into scalpels :cool:

With new skills + knowledge and know the "don't know" part about best-steel is even larger than previously thought - but you know a lot more than before and can pick a steel among experienced 5 (or interpolate|extrapolate steel with similar characteristics) which worked well for you. Iterations of making same blade profile using same steel will teach/learn craftmanship and tune/adapt ht and more questions. In addition, have a couple blades ht by known professional ht services - such as Peters, Trugrit, Bos... These are your baseline for comparison. Ideal baseline set would be 5 blades/steels ht-ed by pro.

If ^ sounds like no fun, try cru-wear or z-wear with secondary temper (~1025F, thus don't even need subzero nor cryo). xwear has good wear + corrosion resistances, so a lot can be learn and good chance to end up with usable knives. 80CrV2 would drastically increases chance of better performance however cru-wear may offers more 'fun'.
 
Good basic advice.

Just a comment on Bluntcuts grinding suggestions. A 5DPS bevel is a 10 degree total angle at the vertex. That would only work with a Scandi or other half height grind. If a FFG blade was 1.25" high, the spine would be .20" thick at 10 degrees total angle. A 2.5DPS would be more practical allowing the use of 1/8" thick steel.
 
:thumbsup:

I agree, for recommended knife profile, FFG (~2.5dps) would provides better performance. My reason for recommended 5dps (more/less mid sabre) because it help keep warps from severe beyond repair/correction, especially when pre-ht grind is asymmetrical. My view - first, discover/find edge stability, then address edge efficiency & durability.

Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
Good basic advice.

Just a comment on Bluntcuts grinding suggestions. A 5DPS bevel is a 10 degree total angle at the vertex. That would only work with a Scandi or other half height grind. If a FFG blade was 1.25" high, the spine would be .20" thick at 10 degrees total angle. A 2.5DPS would be more practical allowing the use of 1/8" thick steel.
Click to expand...
 
This is like someone who's never golfed before wanting to buy the best clubs available, when a few golf lessons would be much cheaper and yield much better benefits. Just my 2¢. I started with 1084 and now use mostly AEB-L. I also use O1, 1095, 1075.
 
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