In your own words explain buying higher priced vs. lower priced.

whitty

Dealer / Materials Provider
Joined
Aug 25, 2005
Messages
6,067
So we were sitting around the shop tonight having a few beers and avoiding the work that needed to be done. We found ourselves in an interesting conversation that basically comes down to this:

You are a knowledgeable knife knut. Someone new to knives comes to you and says "Why should I pay XXX dollars for a knife when I can get the same style knife for XX dollars."

The best example I came up with, hopefully without offending anyone, is Kershaw/ZT/Hinderer. So the question would be "Why should I buy a ZT0566 for XX dollars when I can get a Kershaw for X dollars." Then to the next level. "Why should I buy a Hinderer for XXX dollars when I can buy a ZT for XX dollars?"

I have an answer/opinion for each of these questions based on my own personal experiences, but I want to hold my thoughts back and hear what you guys have to say? Hopefully we will hear some personal opinions on this and thoughts from those newer to knives and those who are total knife fanatics! There are no wrong or right answers. We hope to hear opinions on the personal experiences you have had buying and using knives at different price levels.
 
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I buy the knife, not the price. If the knife matches my aesthetic preferences and fits the user profile I have in mind, I will compare it to others. At that point, price might be the deal maker.

Not long ago, the Spartan Pallas caught my eye. Way too much money for a knife I might not use all that heavily. But it really looked good to me, so ... USA Made Blade got my business. :)
 
Age old question applies widely ...
Why buy a Chevy when you could buy a Cadillac?
Why buy a Cadillac when you could buy a Mercedes?

Or closer to home, (as ZT is the "upscale" brand of Kershaw) why buy the Honda CRV when I could buy the Acura RDX for $10k more?

My answer is more questions - What do you want it for, what level of quality do you want, and what's your budget?

In my job, the saying goes ...
You can have it fast, reliable, or cheap - pick any two.
 
For me, i see serious quality advantages in a (using your example) zt over a kershaw. Zt cost more because of quality materials and craftsmanship in each knife. Better hardware, blade steel, stronger liners and of course titanium all add up.
 
Nick explains it well in this video, and that's a beautiful thing.
[video=youtube_share;JY24SoRJ5Iw]http://youtu.be/JY24SoRJ5Iw[/video]
 
I quit buying cheap shoes. Fit, finish, materials, ergos, etc. I quit buying cheap knives for same reasons. Overall satisfaction with the right shoes and right knives.
 
I'm big on pride of ownership. I also play tons of tournament 9 ball and compete in air rifle matches. I could play pool with a $15 house cue and I can shoot a $45 air rifle........but I don't. I have a few custom cues, avg cost $2500, and when I screw them together to play I get that certain feeling that couldn't be felt with a $15 house cue......same thing when I load an HW 97 that'll put 10 .177 pellets under a dime at 50 yards. Or light a strike anywhere match at 30 yards....yup!! Did that twice!
One of the reasons I like the higher end stuff is it's gorgeous! Also, well made with excellent materials that will last a lifetime.
About half of my knives are used at work. I don't buy $1.99 screwdrivers or pliers and I'm not trusting my hands to a $1.99 knife.
I also appreciate reliability. I hate needing to adjust a pivot after opening a knife a couple times.....CRKT. I hate broken springs in brand new autos or spring assist........Kershaw.
Also......who am I kidding???? I just love sexy knives, and pool cues, and air rifles aaaannnndddd......
Sorry for going on and on....large coffee!!
Joe
 
Watch the video. Does an exc job of explaining why we buy what we buy...
...and note...you are "most-of-the-way" there with a RAT 1 in D2....for cheap.
If you want more than that...i.e. "better" than that...it's just money.
 
There is a 3-way relationship between need, want, and ability (or willingness) to pay. For many, ability to pay is determined by external factors - your job, your family, your health. Willingness to pay may be very closely tied to personality or life experiences. Some people are by nature more parsimonious, others are free spenders. So you have the true need <--> want spectrum, ameliorated by the amount you can/will spend for a particular thing.

It's not all purely logical. Emotion plays a big part, and emotions can vary widely within an individual over time, even over short periods. And you have the cultural/psychologicial effects of marketing. Both intentional, direct marketing by makers and sellers, and the indirect crowd-sourced marketing via things like Bladeforums and social media.

So I guess you have yet another axis in the decision making process - logic vs. emotion, though that is to some extent just another way to express the need vs. want spectrum.

There usually is a true inflection point on the diminishing returns curve where you can tell that value has been optimized, in that the next marginal dollar does not bring a full dollar's worth of added utility. Utility being defined as everything that a particular individual is going to get out of a particular purchase, and can include things like feelings of self-worth, belonging or prestige in a group, happiness, positive self-image which have nothing to do with the actual functionality of the item. And again, how much any individual derives any of those things from possession of material objects varies greatly between people. But those intangibles are also what drive people to keep moving up the returns curve past points where others might stop.

So for a knife - I am getting a tool suited for a particular task or range of tasks that I need to perform. The true need depends on how often and where I need to do those things, and what is required to maintain the functionality of the tool. That's where things like blade shape, type of steel, sturdiness or lightness, effort/cost involved in sharpening, effort/cost involved in repair or replacement come into play. You also would think about the difference of replacement costs versus warranty. Here it's all about the cost, and what you are getting for it. So if I can buy a $200 knife with a lifetime warranty, or four $50 knives that have no warranty, then my only deciding factor is whether I think I will use up all four of the $50 knives during the same lifetime. You would also consider that the loss of a knife is not covered under a warranty, so losing one of the $50 knives is covered by the multiple cheaper knives approach, versus losing the $200 knife is not.

All of the above is part of a rational cost-benefit analysis, the kind you might do if you were running a business and needed to make decisions about what brand of tool to buy or standardize on. You may be sacrificing some utility in one area because it is not worth the added cost to gain that particular utility.

Beyond that, you get more into the psychology of things. You have a certain self-image. It may be accurate, or it may be out of line with reality. Part of that image is a level of cheapness to which you will not voluntarily stoop. Using the car analogy, you may view yourself as being more of a Chevy than Cadillac owner, but you draw the line at Yugos. You'd walk first. This is the sort of thing that marketers play on when they pitch the "you're worth it" or "you deserve it" sales ploys. Clearly if you don't spend extra money (i.e., give your money to them) then you are worth less as a person. Which is BS, but it gets money out of your wallet and into theirs, because they were able to plant that little idea in your head.

It can be done more subtly (or much more unsubtly) by peer groups or society as a whole. Conspicuous consumption, lifestyles of the rich and famous, celebrity culture, or just the "what is your latest knife purchase" threads add to the envy/jealousy/desire to fit in or "buy like him therefore be like him" mindset. How much you are susceptible to such social controls again varies by individual personality and relative wealth.

So in my case - I am somewhat of a cheapskate by nature, have limited funds, and have limited actual real knife needs. So for me, I am not going very far up that returns curve. On the Kershaw-ZT-Hinderer spectrum, I would be most likely to be in the Kershaw category. I do happen to own two very nice ZT knives, but I only have those because I was able to get them at/below dealer cost due to a one-time circumstance. Essentially I got ZTs for Kershaw prices. I would not have bought either, nor would I replace either, if I had to pay regular prices for them. There is nothing that would make me move up to the Hinderer level, other than some massive windfall of money (lottery) where how much something cost just really didn't matter to me.
 
I'd tell them to take a ride to USA Made Blade and hold one in each hand. Then decide which one feels right for the money.
 
Interesting topic, Whitty. Let’s use your example of Kershaw / ZT / Hinderer and take a look at three different knives and what they offer to a knife knut. At the low end of the scale we’ll use the Kershaw Cryo 2, middle of the scale the ZT0562 and at the top, a Hinderer XM-18. I have all three of these and can offer insights on each model. This is probably going to be a wall of text, so you might want to skip to the end.

I’m using the Cryo 2 vs. the Cryo because the longer blade makes it easier to compare directly to the 0562 and XM-18. The original Cryo is so much smaller, it’s really a different class of knife. These same comparisons would be valid for any number of China manufactured Kershaws. For the street price of around $40, you’re getting a very effective cutting tool. The primary differences between the Cryo 2 and the ZT/XM are in two areas: materials and fit/finish. At the Cryo price point, the lowest cost materials are used that are still acceptable for a cutting tool. The 8Cr13MoV steel is, in my opinion, the cheapest steel option that’s viable for a daily use EDC. The Stainless handles are effective, but lack grip and are the heaviest material choice, while still being durable. This weight, to me, is a disadvantage. 0.71 ounces per inch this knife is pretty chunky, but unavoidable at this price. The handle has a few hot spots and feels best when used with a glove. I’ve often felt its good thing that the Cryo 2 is AO as these particular materials at this level of finish probably wouldn’t make a good manual flipper. The Cryo’s lock bar stabilizer is a nice touch, more of a Rick Hinderer “trademark” in this knife than a feature given the solid, stainless handles. The Cryo 2 brings effective service as a cutting tool that will require frequent sharpening and won’t be as comfortable to use as possible. This is fairly common at the entry level price; ergonomics and edge holding are compromised for the sake of meeting a price target and providing a “look”. This knife delivers a Hinderer design at the lowest possible price.

As we move to the ZT we find, in my opinion, the biggest gap in quality between any of the three knives. At a street price of $200, you get a significant improvement in materials and F/F over the Cryo. Some would not consider this upgrade to be worth 5 times the materials and F/F offered by the Cryo, and from a strictly logical sense they might be right. The quality in blade steel from 8Cr to Elmax is significant but does Elmax bring 5 times the performance over 8Cr? Probably not, but in my opinion the Cryo is a folding pocket tool and the ZT 0562 is a KNIFE! The finish and grind on the blade is worlds apart from the Cryo. The heavy steel handle is gone, replaced by high quality G10 on the presentation side and Titanium on the lock side. The weight to length ratio is reduced to 0.67, which for me really hits the sweet spot. The pocket clip is significantly improved and this knife needs no torsion bar to fire out when the flipper tab is engaged. In my opinion, this is the ideal price point to experience the best mix of quality and value from a knife. Above the range of $150 to $250, knife quality tends to peak and return per dollar spent begins to diminish. That doesn’t mean a market doesn’t exist for higher priced knives.

For a little over $400 you can get into a basic Rick Hinderer XM-18, but we’re faced with a conundrum. At this point we no longer experience a significant upgrade in materials or F/F; in fact we’re probably faced with a wash between the RHK and ZT. Blade steel becomes mostly a matter of preference, as does the G10 presentation side scale and titanium lock side. One could even say the ZT has a better pocket clip. It’s entirely possible that, from a standpoint of flipping, the XM will perform worse than the 0562. Above $250 the quality improvements in knives become very incremental and typically aren’t logically worth the increased cost, but logic rarely matters to many knife knuts. What begins to factor in at the XM’s price are pride in ownership, exclusivity, rarity, and personal attention to details. Also, the XM brings a level of factory customization that doesn’t exist in the other knives. Want a unique XM? RHK offers factory hardware and parts that allow you to personalize your knife. Of course, the same can be done with the other knives, but it’s all third party as opposed to OEM. Some of the increased cost brings a brand identity and the mystique associated with a knife that, until recently, was very hard to obtain. Although these items are hard to justify with a balance sheet, they often mean a great deal to knife knuts. The 0562 isn’t a 5X better knife than the Cryo, but a compelling, logical argument could be made for it being 2X or 3X. You can’t even start a logical argument for a clear uplift between the ZT and XM. I personally don’t feel that my XM is a better knife than my 0562, but I’m OK with that. I like the way the XM feels in hand, somehow it’s just a little different in a good way. I’m glad I own all three knives and appreciate them for what they are.

As we move upward to mid-techs and customs, hand finishing and unique features become a factor. I’ve never really broken the $500 price barrier on a knife, so I can’t speak to the pride of ownership of high dollar production knives like a Rockstead or a true, full blown, made-to-order custom knife, but someday I hope I’m fortunate enough to experience that too. Although I can’t usually justify it with overwhelming pros and cons, I really enjoy the feeling that comes with expensive knives. Thanks for reading this far. Any penance you may owe for life actions has been significantly reduced.
 
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I'm big on pride of ownership. I also play tons of tournament 9 ball and compete in air rifle matches. I could play pool with a $15 house cue and I can shoot a $45 air rifle........but I don't. I have a few custom cues, avg cost $2500, and when I screw them together to play I get that certain feeling that couldn't be felt with a $15 house cue......same thing when I load an HW 97 that'll put 10 .177 pellets under a dime at 50 yards. Or light a strike anywhere match at 30 yards....yup!! Did that twice!
One of the reasons I like the higher end stuff is it's gorgeous! Also, well made with excellent materials that will last a lifetime.
About half of my knives are used at work. I don't buy $1.99 screwdrivers or pliers and I'm not trusting my hands to a $1.99 knife.
I also appreciate reliability. I hate needing to adjust a pivot after opening a knife a couple times.....CRKT. I hate broken springs in brand new autos or spring assist........Kershaw.
Also......who am I kidding???? I just love sexy knives, and pool cues, and air rifles aaaannnndddd......
Sorry for going on and on....large coffee!!
Joe

As is often the case, I agree with Joe. His answer is roughly the same as mine.

Think of it in 4 categories. Crap, good, better and special.

Crap: Pretty self explanatory. Cheap truck stop knives good for mall ninjary, ER visits and other exercises in poor decision making.

Good: Kershaw in the OPs example. A quality knife for practical use, but made of lower end materials. Does a good job, but may be heavier, cheaper feeling and require more frequent maintenance. The Timex of knives.

Better: ZT. Not drastically different in form and function than its lesser counterpart, but is made with a higher level of fit and finish as well as better base materials. Requires less maintenance and can take on tougher tasks. The Citizen or Seiko of knives.

Hinderer: Again, not terribly different in form and function, but made with the highest quality materials. More variation in those materials and lower production numbers result in exclusivity. It's special. Like a Rolex. Tells the same time as the Timex or Citizen, but gives a sense of pride to the owner and makes the simple task for which it was designed a more pleasurable one.
 
As is often the case, I agree with Joe. His answer is roughly the same as mine.

Think of it in 4 categories. Crap, good, better and special.

Crap: Pretty self explanatory. Cheap truck stop knives good for mall ninjary, ER visits and other exercises in poor decision making.

Good: Kershaw in the OPs example. A quality knife for practical use, but made of lower end materials. Does a good job, but may be heavier, cheaper feeling and require more frequent maintenance. The Timex of knives.

Better: ZT. Not drastically different in form and function than its lesser counterpart, but is made with a higher level of fit and finish as well as better base materials. Requires less maintenance and can take on tougher tasks. The Citizen or Seiko of knives.

Hinderer: Again, not terribly different in form and function, but made with the highest quality materials. More variation in those materials and lower production numbers result in exclusivity. It's special. Like a Rolex. Tells the same time as the Timex or Citizen, but gives a sense of pride to the owner and makes the simple task for which it was designed a more pleasurable one.

Jeez, you just said what I said with WAY fewer words :D
 
Depends on how new they are. If it's someone looking for what amounts to their first real knife, I'm gonna advise them to buy for their needs before their wants and that means start with the Kershaw and work your way up. If they envision themselves as a future collector I might push for a slightly higher priced, American made Kershaw on the philosophy that it's not expensive enough to give them buyers remorse if they decide the hobby isn't for them, but will still be a great knife that will likely serve them well for the rest of their life.

Beyond that, I think it gets mostly into wants over needs and what you, as a consumer, want and like in a knife and how much you're willing to pay.
 
Higher priced vs cheap knives? I can't explain it other than the smile factor & the fact that I can now afford nicer stuff now.

I ran across some of my cheap old Barlows & other knives when cleaning out my Mom's attic before auction. They seem to cut pretty much the same as my CRK. Would I buy any of the $4-10 Barlows on the market now? Hell no! It has to be a $100+ #77, even though either one will open the mail just fine. :)
 
There's a point where you no longer have a knife... Just a piece of art that looks like a knife.
 
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