India Stone Change?

[HeavyHanded]

I recently picked up a stone from my father in law that is of a type I've never seen before. Initially it looked like it had a medium Crystalonesque grit on one side and the other almost looked like a fired Alumina barber's hone. Gave a D2 Eskabar a few passes on it for a microbevel and it refined the edge nicely.

Heavily plugged with swarf and oil and visibly dished, I started lapping it and lo and behold the "coarse" side looks more along the lines of the fine side on an ACE combination stone except based on color it is probably AlumOx, the fine side almost looks like a soft Arkansas.

As it cleaned up I notice the surface is too uniform in color and texture to be a natural - has no voids at all and is 100% uniform in color across 2x6". Close inspection of the chipped areas along the edge pretty much confirms to me it is some sort of manufactured AlumOx India stone, but far finer than even the US made Norton India.

I have no idea if this is even a Norton product, but it is a heck of a stone and I'll be sure to lap it completely flat and post up a picture as time allows - it is one tough cookie.

 

[David Martin]

Heavy, great I'd like to see those pictures. Good luck, DM

 

[HeavyHanded]

Here's the update to the last post.

I had a chance to try this stone out. Lapping it was just as difficult as the current Mex India stone. The ends of the stone are not clean cut, but that may have been done by the father in law at some point or was cut from a larger stone.

The coarse side looks very similar, the fine side is very different in both color and feel. Also, after extensive lapping on a diamond plate and then conditioning it with loose silicon carbide it still holds thin oil on the surface very well.

Used it to touch up a knife with 1095 steel, it cut fast and clean, removed the burr easily and has that great velvety feedback you want in a medium grit stone. Was able to crosscut fine catalog paper with less hitching and noise than the standard India stone but still very grabby - if the current issue is approx 320 grit, this one is probably 600 and maybe cut like an 800 once broken back in. I wish this were a full sized stone.

I am not certain of the pedigree or vintage, this could be from some other manufacturer but I personally believe it is at least 30 years old, possibly much older.

Pics, the darker larger one is the Mexico Mfg India:

 

[David Martin]

HH, your Father in Law's stone and my fine India are the same color. Only mine is a 1" all India. Not a combo stone. I think mine even has
some inking on the side. I'll look. Thanks for posting this photo as it reminded me to look at mine. DM

 

[David Martin]

Here is a photo of mine. DM

 

[David Martin]

HH, your correct on this stone being more dense that the Norton India stone. And it is much finer. I agree with your assessment, on this
stones grit. It feels like around 600. I lapped one side finer and that side acts & feels like around 800. This gives me good grit progression. DM

 

[Littlebabycarrot]

I was searching for info about barber's hones bc I have a question or three and saw this thread & decided to ask here despite how old it is...
Are barber's hones aluminum oxide?
Does anyone know if they are still manufactured?
If not is there a common modern equivalent?
Can any modern/common stones compare to how they work(The big grits conditioned to lie almost flat against the binders)?

My question is are there aluminum oxide stones that can be conditioned to cut like a barbers hone? Or do you just need a vintage barbers hone?

 

[maximus83]

Looking at online stores that sell these stones. It's interesting that Only the fine grit ratings have changes, for the stated Crystolon and India stones. The coarse and medium grits remain as have always been, agreeing with Norton's chart above. Is there some inflating going on or misinformation? DM

Some of the online suppliers like Sharpening Supplies (see their Norton grit page) use a different grit rating system. This company says they use JIS, rather than ANSI or CAMI grit ratings, when they refer to the Norton stones. So that explains the difference. In the unified grit chart, it shows that at the lower India grits like 150 and 240 (ANSI and CAMI), the JIS ratings at those grits are aligned and approximately equal. At the higher grit, say ANSI 320, the JIS rating diverges and is now higher (400). Some of these companies use JIS, or some other system, so they can refer to abrasives using the same rating system throughout their site, I don't think the intent is to be misleading.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

I was searching for info about barber's hones bc I have a question or three and saw this thread & decided to ask here despite how old it is...
Are barber's hones aluminum oxide?
Does anyone know if they are still manufactured?
If not is there a common modern equivalent?
Can any modern/common stones compare to how they work(The big grits conditioned to lie almost flat against the binders)?

My question is are there aluminum oxide stones that can be conditioned to cut like a barbers hone? Or do you just need a vintage barbers hone?

Barber hones were either aluminum oxide or silicon carbide around ANSI 400-ish grit in a shellac bond with the surface treated in such a way as to cause the grit to only just barely protrude from the surface. A better approach is to just get a stone of equivalently fine grit and not have to worry about surface treatment so much. Wreck the surface finish of a barber hone by lapping it or similar and it'll kill the stone.

 

[David Martin]

Noted Barber hones I have are like a ceramic without the glaze applied. My Franz Swaty, Austria is like this. The more you use it the finer
it breaks in to something around 1000 grit maybe 1200. My Belgian Coticule stone is some what finer and it being a water stone it works different.
Both 'feel' very smooth like a broke in Black Hard Arkansas. For a straight razor one can get a good edge coming off the ultra fine Spyderco
ceramic with stropping. DM

 

[annr]

My double-sided 00 Frictionite hone (American hone company), meant for honing razors, has a unique texture--different than a glazed, loaded/broken-in fine India Stone or ceramic.
It is both extremely smooth AND fast cutting on a good edge. If I'm not careful, I can imagine slicing a ding in the surface of the stone:it seems fairly soft, rubbery.
This stone came with a smaller stone to resurface it if it glazes, though according to the instructions, it shouldn't glaze if used and cleaned correctly.

 

[Spideyjg]

My double-sided 00 Frictionite hone (American hone company), meant for honing razors, has a unique texture--different than a glazed, loaded/broken-in fine India Stone or ceramic.
It is both extremely smooth AND fast cutting on a good edge. If I'm not careful, I can imagine slicing a ding in the surface of the stone:it seems fairly soft, rubbery.
This stone came with a smaller stone to resurface it if it glazes, though according to the instructions, it shouldn't glaze if used and cleaned correctly.

Great razor hone but be careful it can never be replaced. Read the sad tale here...one person took the secret to these to their grave.

https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/00-frictionite-razor-hones-by-american-hone-co.495956/

 

[Littlebabycarrot]

My double-sided 00 Frictionite hone (American hone company), meant for honing razors, has a unique texture--different than a glazed, loaded/broken-in fine India Stone or ceramic.
It is both extremely smooth AND fast cutting on a good edge. If I'm not careful, I can imagine slicing a ding in the surface of the stone:it seems fairly soft, rubbery.
This stone came with a smaller stone to resurface it if it glazes, though according to the instructions, it shouldn't glaze if used and cleaned correctly.

Thanks for the info. What grit is a fine india when new? How does it cut when broken in? I am really intrigued by the idea of barber hones and i cannot justify my interest by conventional means; no one in the central valley seems to have one and they dont sell them new: maybe I just like the idea that old barbers were able to macguyver a ~600 grit stone into a finishing hone for razors. I wish the stones from the local hardware store functioned the same. As it is i think ill just get a 4k/8k off the net(tho i hate buying off the internet). I need something to refine an edge before the black ark and lost my white hard a while back

 

[HeavyHanded]

Thanks for the info. What grit is a fine india when new? How does it cut when broken in? I am really intrigued by the idea of barber hones and i cannot justify my interest by conventional means; no one in the central valley seems to have one and they dont sell them new: maybe I just like the idea that old barbers were able to macguyver a ~600 grit stone into a finishing hone for razors. I wish the stones from the local hardware store functioned the same. As it is i think ill just get a 4k/8k off the net(tho i hate buying off the internet). I need something to refine an edge before the black ark and lost my white hard a while back

Ebay has a ton of barber's hones, there is no shortage.

My experience with a Swaty was that it could be resurfaced, and yielded an edge comparable to 1000 -1200 ANSI, pretty fine.
The better ones are alumina fired at high temp and pressure, sort of like a Spyderco ceramic but no where near as hard.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

Thanks for the info. What grit is a fine india when new? How does it cut when broken in? I am really intrigued by the idea of barber hones and i cannot justify my interest by conventional means; no one in the central valley seems to have one and they dont sell them new: maybe I just like the idea that old barbers were able to macguyver a ~600 grit stone into a finishing hone for razors. I wish the stones from the local hardware store functioned the same. As it is i think ill just get a 4k/8k off the net(tho i hate buying off the internet). I need something to refine an edge before the black ark and lost my white hard a while back

The Fine India is rated by Norton at around ~360 (CAMI standard) by their own chart; see below. I just bought one (IB8 Coarse/Fine combo stone) & received it about a week ago; used it on three or four knives so far. Pretty aggressive-looking scratch patterns off the 'Fine' side when new; I'd say it's very well within the 320-400 range. Don't know how it'll change/refine as it gets more use, but I don't think it'll compare to the described grit ratings of these barber's hones at all.

I think I've seen posts here, by others using well-broken-in India stones, describing them as performing up to ~600-grit or so. But I doubt they'd go anywhere finer, beyond that.

 

[annr]

Thanks for the info. What grit is a fine india when new? How does it cut when broken in? I am really intrigued by the idea of barber hones and i cannot justify my interest by conventional means; no one in the central valley seems to have one and they dont sell them new: maybe I just like the idea that old barbers were able to macguyver a ~600 grit stone into a finishing hone for razors. I wish the stones from the local hardware store functioned the same. As it is i think ill just get a 4k/8k off the net(tho i hate buying off the internet). I need something to refine an edge before the black ark and lost my white hard a while back

I bought all of my India stones over 20 years ago. Based on an old Norton grit table, they are rated P400. According to other members here, the new stones come pre-treated, so I don't know if my experience is comparable.

After a break-in period, I felt that they cut more like 1,000+ grit wet/dry sandpaper. To hasten the transition to a smoother texture, I would slather them in Vaseline and boil them. This is probably my best substitute for the frictionite for daily honing--but not a replacement, since the hone has 2 sides and I have many other options both coarser and finer to compliment this.

IMO, the choice of stone would depend on what blade you are sharpening, what kind of edge you are after, and how you will use the knife.

To really know the difference, you would need to try both, and if you are after a barber's hone, you might be happier with that since IME they are not the same.

 

[annr]

Great razor hone but be careful it can never be replaced. Read the sad tale here...one person took the secret to these to their grave.

https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/00-frictionite-razor-hones-by-american-hone-co.495956/

Thanks for this! Yes, I have spoken to STR about this.

Through dumb luck I bought one of these about 45 years ago. I made a little felt case with snap to store it, and it remains in fine condition--though you are right, I better not press my luck.

I've only met one other person who used one of these hones, and as coincidence would have it, he was one of my teachers and had been using his for his entire career. I bet he got 50+ years out of that thing.
Have you ever tried one?

 

[Spideyjg]

Thanks for this! Yes, I have spoken to STR about this.

Have you ever tried one?

I stumbled across 2 a few years back. I treat them like gold.

 

[annr]

I stumbled across 2 a few years back. I treat them like gold.

Have you ever used the little stone that came with it to resurface it?

 

[Spideyjg]

Have you ever used the little stone that came with it to resurface it?

Didn't have a resurfacing stone.