Inexpensive, quality traditional slipjoints

[4Mica]

The discussion in the blade play/wobble thread has me thinking, can a manufacture make a traditional American style slipjoint as well as Victorinox makes SAKs without it being cost prohibitive. What are your thoughts?

 

[moonwilson]

Case can and does do it. If blade wobble is a concern, you may want to find a brick & mortar dealer and handle the knives in person. I've never been unhappy with any of my Case knives. Except for my Russlock- and that's because it's a stupid pattern (IMO), not because Case did a bad job with it. Try a peanut! They're great.

 

[NirreBosse]

NO.......No one can today. But they have other advantages like soul and attitude of their own.

Bosse

 

[IVANKERLEY]

Case can and does do it. If blade wobble is a concern, you may want to find a brick & mortar dealer and handle the knives in person. I've never been unhappy with any of my Case knives. Except for my Russlock- and that's because it's a stupid pattern (IMO), not because Case did a bad job with it. Try a peanut! They're great.

My son has one and its grown on me to the point where i may pick one up...
Agree with ya on Case though and my CV soddie cant be beat, and is one of my favorite knives all for $22.00
And handling the knives first is always better:thumbup:
ivan

 

[Absintheur]

I would not hesitate to contact the seller if I received a knife with bad blade wobble. This is one reason I pass on some knives, especially on ebay if the seller does not have a return policy. I will normally ask a seller if there is blade wobble before bidding. There always is the option with American makers such as Case to return the knife if it is new to their repair center.

I really don't see this being a big issue as avenues are available to resolve the problem.

 

[jackknife]

I think they can do it they want.

The people at Victorinox are not super beings, or omnipitent. They just had some different buisness models. If Case, Queen, or any of them did what Victorinox did, they would turn out a similar level of knife as Victorinox. But first, you have to convince the CEO's and thier board members to not have a bonus, no pay raise that year, and prove they really are interested in the company rather than the paycheck.

Switzerland is a modern nation with a very good industrial base. They make way more than chocolate and cheese. Swiss SIG target pistols are one of the worlds most accurite firearms. Swiss medical instruments are known for prescission manufacture. SAK's are known for the same. They are a member of the EU, and Swiss citizens enjoy a very 21st century life. They are not out roaming the hills dressed in leather shorts youdling for the sheep.

If any American knife company wanted, they could buy the same CNC machines sak's are made on, and have a like product. If they want. That's the difference.

When Schrade went down, then Camillus, I looked at some of the photos that were making the rounds. I saw alot of old, worn out machines that were way way past retirement. The last few years Schrade was in buisness, thier products were not that good. I looked at some Uncle Henry and Old Timer knives that a local store was clearing out. Blade wobble, uneven grinding, poor edges, gaps in liners and backsprings. They were terrible knives that were a travesty of past Schrades. The company got looted and rode into the ground by greedy execs, that flogged it as far as it could go, then bailed with golden parachutes.

Too many companies can do better, but are hamstrung by the execs at the top. They won't spend money for new machines. It may cut into thier 7 figure bonus.

Victorinox does not share that problem.

 

[Will Power]

I've been pleased with all the Bökers I have, not the finest in finish but very acceptable(some excellent)and very good value for money too.No wobble on mine,snap a bit light on the Copperhead.

 

[Getahl]

Maybe I've just been lucky so far, but only one of the 5 slip joints that I own had any kind of blade wobble. All but one have been under 20$. Two China Bucks, a Lowe's Case Soddie Jr., and a GEC were all fine...the one culprit was a Schrade 94OT. It was a pretty knife, and initial impressions were alright. But the wiggle got on my nerves. I tried compressing the bolsters with a channel lock to help. Well, it tightened it up, alright. But then the clip blade began grinding against the liner. Strangely enough, the spey blade turned out perfect. I don't really use that knife anymore. Oh well, it was only 17$...

 

[4Mica]

I think they can do it they want.

The people at Victorinox are not super beings, or omnipitent. They just had some different buisness models. If Case, Queen, or any of them did what Victorinox did, they would turn out a similar level of knife as Victorinox. But first, you have to convince the CEO's and thier board members to not have a bonus, no pay raise that year, and prove they really are interested in the company rather than the paycheck.

Switzerland is a modern nation with a very good industrial base. They make way more than chocolate and cheese. Swiss SIG target pistols are one of the worlds most accurite firearms. Swiss medical instruments are known for prescission manufacture. SAK's are known for the same. They are a member of the EU, and Swiss citizens enjoy a very 21st century life. They are not out roaming the hills dressed in leather shorts youdling for the sheep.

If any American knife company wanted, they could buy the same CNC machines sak's are made on, and have a like product. If they want. That's the difference.

When Schrade went down, then Camillus, I looked at some of the photos that were making the rounds. I saw alot of old, worn out machines that were way way past retirement. The last few years Schrade was in buisness, thier products were not that good. I looked at some Uncle Henry and Old Timer knives that a local store was clearing out. Blade wobble, uneven grinding, poor edges, gaps in liners and backsprings. They were terrible knives that were a travesty of past Schrades. The company got looted and rode into the ground by greedy execs, that flogged it as far as it could go, then bailed with golden parachutes.

Too many companies can do better, but are hamstrung by the execs at the top. They won't spend money for new machines. It may cut into thier 7 figure bonus.

Victorinox does not share that problem.

I tend to think that the SAK style knife lends itself to more automated manufacture, whereas the traditional bolstered knives do not. Maybe I am way off base in thinking this. There are well made American manufactured slippies but they are more expensive than SAKs. So, part of my question in this thread is, can the traditional slippies we know and love be manufactured like that? And if they can't, how much is that hand work going add to the cost of the knife. I really hope someone who has insight into this will comment here.

 

[jackknife]

I tend to think that the SAK style knife lends itself to more automated manufacture, whereas the traditional bolstered knives do not. Maybe I am way off base in thinking this. There are well made American manufactured slippies but they are more expensive than SAKs. So, part of my question in this thread is, can the traditional slippies we know and love be manufactured like that? And if they can't, how much is that hand work going add to the cost of the knife. I really hope someone who has insight into this will comment here.

I agree that maybe the bolster may make a bit of a difference, but I don't think it's a big one. If it is, then let the consumer have a choice. Have a regular line of knives, then have a shadow series of knives. Look at a Victorinox alox solo or settler. It's single or two bladed sleeve board jack in a shadow pattern. The aluminum scales are the liners and vise versa. Yet it's one of the most rugged pocket knives on earth. Tough as nails, yet very simple construction. Fit and finish is perfect due to the state of the art machines it's made on.

And that's the end all botton line of the issue can a U.S. company make a knife with Victorinox fit and finish. Does the company really want to make it, or are they content with thier share of a market without spending more money than nessesary on tooling?

There has been shadow patterns of stockmen, peanuts, and jacks. They can be made rugged yet economical. Heck, some of those shadow patterns smiling-knife posts have survived a lifetime of use for thier owners.

In answer to the original post, I still think yes we can. But it will take some CEO's and execs who will make a descission based on what's good for their company, not thier own portfolios.

After AMF had bled Harley-Davidson dry and dumped the corpse on the market, it was bought by the Harley execs. With thier back to the wall, they made a descission to make a good bike, unlike the leaking unreliable junk AMF had pushed out the door. They knew they had one shot at it, and it had to be good. They sent a team to Japan to see how Honda and the other companies made motorcycles. They came home and went deep in the hole to buy all new Japanese machining centers, re-trained their personel to use them, and came out with the evolution motor. A reliable power plant for a modern motorcycle. The old tooling went out the door for junk, and they've been doing great ever since.

But it took all new machines to do it. Thats alot of money to spend, but it was needed.

You can't make a exeptional product without the right equiptment. It's a deadly competitive market out there. You need fast production machinery to stay in buisness.

 

[mnblade]

Switzerland is a modern nation with a very good industrial base. They make way more than chocolate and cheese. Swiss SIG target pistols are one of the worlds most accurite firearms. Swiss medical instruments are known for prescission manufacture. SAK's are known for the same. They are a member of the EU, and Swiss citizens enjoy a very 21st century life.

All this and a system of supporting both healthcare and education that many Americans dismiss as commie. That's worth remembering.

The company got looted and rode into the ground by greedy execs, that flogged it as far as it could go, then bailed with golden parachutes.

Too many companies can do better, but are hamstrung by the execs at the top. They won't spend money for new machines. It may cut into thier 7 figure bonus.

Can you substantiate this? Schrade is/was hardly Enron or Goldman Sachs. Not saying you're wrong; I don't know one way or the other.

Victorinox does not share that problem.

Amen. Judging from afar, they seem to have long been run by a management team that is a very class act.

 

[knowtracks]

After AMF had bled Harley-Davidson dry and dumped the corpse on the market, it was bought by the Harley execs. With thier back to the wall, they made a descission to make a good bike, unlike the leaking unreliable junk AMF had pushed out the door. They knew they had one shot at it, and it had to be good. They sent a team to Japan to see how Honda and the other companies made motorcycles. They came home and went deep in the hole to buy all new Japanese machining centers, re-trained their personel to use them, and came out with the evolution motor. A reliable power plant for a modern motorcycle. The old tooling went out the door for junk, and they've been doing great ever since.

Actually if it weren't for AMF there would be NO Harley Davidson Motorcycle Company today. During AMF's reign was where the Evo motor was developed, ask anyone in a executive position at H-D. Willie G. & the rest of the BOD didn't have the wear-with-all or the insight at the time AMF took over.
Believe you me I hated AMF's take over as much as anybody when it was happening. I stuck more than 1 piece of electric tape over the AMF on the gas tank, untill I could get it repainted.
But in hindsight AMF save an american company.

Dave

 

[Blues]

Gents, let's steer this discussion back to traditional knives please...

 

[shecky]

The discussion in the blade play/wobble thread has me thinking, can a manufacture make a traditional American style slipjoint as well as Victorinox makes SAKs without it being cost prohibitive. What are your thoughts?

All of my "traditional" Rough Rider slipjoints exhibit very little, if any, lateral blade wobble. Certainly, if they could get it right, you'd think older companies could do it, too. I wish my only "traditional" Case had been made with such attention to detail. It's still a perfectly good user, and actually performs well. But if Rough Rider had it's "problems", they would be held as examples of how crappy imports can be.

I do think Victorinox was never really hobbled by the need to remain "traditional". They engineered a slipjoint that could be manufactured in mass quantities to the highest standards. That meant eliminating things like bolsters and natural material scales. Also, as noted, some traditional manufacturers rely on lots (perhaps too much) antiquated equipment and processes. This sort of thing is a bit of a double edged sword. On the one hand, these characteristics appeal to the type of knife nut that likes a knife with "soul" that feels like a hand made tool. On the other hand, it also means you might get a knife that very much feels hand made, and not in the good sense.

 

[rifon2]

Victorinox is an amazing company indeed.

Yet I do not see collectors clamoring for their knives as they do for knives by Case, Queen, Robeson, Schatt & Morgan, Schrade, etc.

Switzerland and the Swiss have been around for a looooong time...let's see what kind of slipjoints America is producing ten or twenty years from now.
Just over the past couple of years, for example, I've seen the offerings from Case, Queen, and Canal Street really improve.

 

[Peregrin]

I really think Case has ramped up their QC. At least the Case knives I've bought recently lead me to believe that. I won't keep a knife that has blade wobble and I haven't had a problem with any Case knife in some time now. I'd say they have reached the point where wobble is the exception, not the rule. I know I appreciate the extra attention to detail.

 

[scdreger]

All this and a system of supporting both healthcare and education that many Americans dismiss as commie. That's worth remembering.

Agreed :thumbup:

 

[artmichalek]

I do think Victorinox was never really hobbled by the need to remain "traditional". They engineered a slipjoint that could be manufactured in mass quantities to the highest standards. That meant eliminating things like bolsters and natural material scales. Also, as noted, some traditional manufacturers rely on lots (perhaps too much) antiquated equipment and processes. This sort of thing is a bit of a double edged sword. On the one hand, these characteristics appeal to the type of knife nut that likes a knife with "soul" that feels like a hand made tool. On the other hand, it also means you might get a knife that very much feels hand made, and not in the good sense.

Victorinox also relies on a brilliantly modular design. For example, they've produced at some point or another almost 60 different knives in the 91mm format. All of which use the same liners and spacers, and only a few types each of springs and scales. They all use the same blades, just more or fewer of them. So, when a set of 91mm liners comes off of the press, they can go immediately to assembly no matter which of those 60 designs the factory is filling an order for. The result is a huge product catalog with very little excess inventory sitting around the shop.

It's hard to match that kind of supply chain efficiency with traditional knives. If you want to make a gunstock and a swayback, you need a set of liner dies for each and you have set-up and take-down time on your press each time you switch from making one to making the other. Even if you're cnc'ing your blades, you still need to coordinate the numbers of wharncliffe and clip point blades to the numbers of liners you're stamping. If you over run any one of those parts, inventory piles up. And every second a blade that you paid for sits around waiting to be turned into a knife someone pays you for equals money you lose on the loan you took out to buy that cnc.

It's very easy to sit back and assume that modernizing equipment is going to automatically lead to higher quality at a lower cost, but it really depends on a company and its product lineup. Companies are in this to make money. If upgrading equipment is going to lose money and drive them out of business, they aren't going to do it.

 

[moonwilson]

Victorinox also relies on a brilliantly modular design. For example, they've produced at some point or another almost 60 different knives in the 91mm format. All of which use the same liners and spacers, and only a few types each of springs and scales. They all use the same blades, just more or fewer of them. So, when a set of 91mm liners comes off of the press, they can go immediately to assembly no matter which of those 60 designs the factory is filling an order for. The result is a huge product catalog with very little excess inventory sitting around the shop.

It's hard to match that kind of supply chain efficiency with traditional knives. If you want to make a gunstock and a swayback, you need a set of liner dies for each and you have set-up and take-down time on your press each time you switch from making one to making the other. Even if you're cnc'ing your blades, you still need to coordinate the numbers of wharncliffe and clip point blades to the numbers of liners you're stamping. If you over run any one of those parts, inventory piles up. And every second a blade that you paid for sits around waiting to be turned into a knife someone pays you for equals money you lose on the loan you took out to buy that cnc.

It's very easy to sit back and assume that modernizing equipment is going to automatically lead to higher quality at a lower cost, but it really depends on a company and its product lineup. Companies are in this to make money. If upgrading equipment is going to lose money and drive them out of business, they aren't going to do it.

Well said. I completely agree. Victorinox products are very modular. Most of their products are variations on the same pattern. They have way fewer different types of parts to manufacture- so their equipment can be much more specialized than Case's can. Case's equipment has to be flexible enough to make all of the different patterns they offer- and be capable of producing new ones that haven't even been designed yet. If Case only made knives on the medium stockman pattern, they would get very, very good at it. Their equipment is very modern, it's just not specifically designed to make the exact same thing over and over, perfectly.


Plus, Victorinox is a Swiss company. The Swiss are, well, Swiss. Have you ever been to Switzerland? It's a whole different world. Their culture has evolved over hundreds of years with precision manufacture as a core value. This value is evident almost everywhere you look, just walking down the street- their attention to detail is astounding. This is not to say that Americans are not capable of making precision goods, but rather, it's not a part of our national psyche the way it is with the Swiss.

 

[rmfnla]

The discussion in the blade play/wobble thread has me thinking, can a manufacture make a traditional American style slipjoint as well as Victorinox makes SAKs without it being cost prohibitive. What are your thoughts?

Interesting post. I guess one thing we need to establish what you consider "cost prohibitive."

I recently got a new Canal Street Half Moonpie Trapper; a truely beautifully made knife for under $60. The blade had considerable wobble; a good 1/4" at the tip, so I called Canal Street and spoke to the owner, Wally Gardiner (sp?). Super-nice guy who insisted I send it back so they could make it right.

I mentioned how much I liked the knife, especially the SS liners, and he mentioned that making then is a pain because of how hard SS is on the tooling but they really like the results.

I don't remember hearing anyone getting a chance to speak with the owner of Victorinox or Wenger; this experience has really turned me into a Canal Street fan.

Can't wait to get my half moonpie back!