INFI v. "Ninja" swords

lobo9er

lobo9er

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Got into a conversation about swords on the job and one individual took exception to my comment that while ahead of its time steel of today is superior to the "samurai" swords they were talking about. So I let him rattle on and enjoyed my coffee :) Any thoughts?
 
There is only one way to tell, get a vintage top quality Katana and test it against similar size Busse, and compare the results.
One sure category where Busse beats a Katana is the price department.
 
I feel like this is one of those threads I should just keep my mouth shut, but I can't help myself. Really not fair to compare modern steels to traditional Japanese methods and talk negatives or positives on either side. Clearly the steel they were using was not as advanced or developed as what we have now. However, knives today don't take months and months of craftsmanship that people dedicated every waking hour of their lives to perfecting. Could a traditional nihonto be put through the stresses of a Busse, absolutely not. But then again, that was not their design. I could probably spend a lot of time going on about this, but lets just leave it at they are designed and made for two different purposes, so saying one is "better" than the other is completely subjective.


mainaman said:
There is only one way to tell, get a vintage top quality Katana and test it against similar size Busse, and compare the results.
One sure category where Busse beats a Katana is the price department.
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Despite what I just said.....I would still pay to see this :) Come on, based on the collections I've seen here someone must have an extra 30k laying around to buy a traditionally forged nihonto :P

Edit: Now of course, if I misunderstood and you were talking about the trash you can buy these days made in china......then yes, your co-worker should have been laughed at :)
 
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Jonathan T said:
Edit: Now of course, if I misunderstood and you were talking about the trash you can buy these days made in china......then yes, your co-worker should have been laughed at :)
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I am talking about the vintage stuff, even current master smith made Katanas are not of the same quality as centuries ago, the Tamahagane that is being produced now is just not as good.
 
There is and has been an awful lot of BS about Japanese swords. Yeah, some swords that were made by the top smiths were very very good, but there is only so much that
can be done with plain carbon steel. I have had people tell me that a "samurai" sword can cut a .50 BMG barrel in half and cut a floating silk scarf in the air. (The same claims
have been made about the wootz steel blades of the middle east and India.)

I offered one guy a chance to try his 500 year old katana against my Collins machete. He declined. BS walks again. :D

There is really no way to prove the claims. No one in their right mind is going to risk a $$$$$ sword just to prove their point.
 
It is a rather large myth that modern, traditionally made Nihon-to are technically inferior to those made centuries ago. Smiths today have all the advantages of both time and technology. The best of those made 800 years ago are favored by collectors not only for their craftsmanship but also for their artistic value, and the history and romance that surrounds them. There were a lot of lesser quality Japanese swords made throughout the past 1000 years- mostly what we see surviving today are the better examples, with exceptions of course. Your average utility blade was used and recycled. The better blades were treasured and protected.

Smiths today make blades almost entirely as art swords meant for collectors. They are very well made, with few flaws, using all of the advantages of modern science. Metallurgically, they are as good as 99.9% of all swords made previously. They may not have all the artistic features that the masterpieces of the Kamakura era possess, but as practical cutting blades, they work as well as tests done during WWII proved.

These tests done during WWII used old and modern traditionally made blades, as well as modern, non-traditionally made blades. In most cutting tests the modern made blades were found to cut as well as older blades. Some of the best performing blades were actually non-traditionally made blades like the so-called Mantetsu-to, which was a sword made using more or less traditional techniques integrated with a modern knowledge of metallurgy and instrumentation. These swords were not made of tamahagane and were made by inserting a softer iron rod into a higher carbon steel pipe, then forged to shape. These swords proved to perform very well, especially in the cold winters found in Manchuria during which old swords were found to be prone to breaking.

Some of the best cutting modern made blades are made by Howard Clark using L7 and salt bath heat treatments. They can do things no traditionally made Japanese sword can do but to those that appreciate the Japanese sword, there is much more to the traditional nihon-to than performance alone.

There can be no doubt that trying to compare a Busse knife to a Nihon-to, on any level, is an apples to oranges comparison. They are made for a different purpose and frankly, there is little in a production knife such as a Busse that can compare with the quality of craftsmanship seen in a traditional Japanese sword. It is like comparing the machine made WWII factory blades made during WWII to those made by hand in the traditional manner. They may cut as well, or maybe better in certain circumstances, but they have no soul.
 
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There is another factor that makes it not a fair comparison. Edge geometry. The Bussekin Sword Like Objects are made with a rather thick and sturdy edge, as Jerry expect us to chop down trees, split concrete blocks, chop up steel signs and old appliances, etc. Japanese swords were and are not designed for these abuses, and have a thinner edge designed to cut.
 
The high end blade may posess the soul of the artist, but a production user possesses the soul of the owner.
 
right I agree with all with all of you. They were great for their time. But if people think that metalurgy went backwards they are nuts. And I'm nut talking craftsmanship, but we can do in days what took months, that doesnt mean craftmanship sucks today. we are just more advance. Funny you mention the 50 bmg barrel. The gentleman actually said a "samurai" sword would slice right through a rifle barrel. :) To which I smiled and said something to the effect of "that would cool to see" And by no way am I knocking the "old" world craftsman. But come one to believe we havent advanced since year 500 or whatever... There was a good documentary about making a real viking sword that really went into depth on metalurgy of the past and present, I think it was called something like "viking sword" orthe name of the sword maker anyhow something really obvious what it was about.

Also its not only infi I believe there exist far superior steels todays for all swords and knives than the past. Not because the old ones sucked but because we advanced our technology, removing impurities, adding elements, advance heat treatments and cryogenics. And I am guessing 1000 years from now we as people if we humans still rule the earth will be even further ahead in technology as well as metalurgy.
 
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I brought this thread up because it's a good one and now more than ever, I'd really like to see how a Busse katana, with the correct geometry, would perform in test cutting. I have a darn good idea, tho.
rolf
 
Competition Finish Short Butaniku vs. traditional Wakizashi &/or CF Butaniku vs. Katana.

Where is Noss with test-to destruction videos of the above?

Where is the thread demanding CF Butanikus?

Pete
 
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That's like arguing a car made in the 1940s is superior to the automobiles on today's market :)
 
Part of the liquidation of my ridiculous knife collection is to fund my love for nihonto. I now have three pieces in my collection: papered wakizashi (formerly a naginata) from mid 1500's, un-papered wakizashi (also formerly a naginata) from the late 1600's, and a papered katana from the late 1600's. None of them are in koshirae, just shirasaya (wooden handle and sheath for storage only), but each one has a very distinctive feel to them. Some people may feel some sort of bond with their grail Busse chopper, but holding something that was truly made by hand, has stood the test of time and given the condition, was most likely used in battle, is a different thing all together. The last thing I want to do is swing one into a cinder block!!! Are you f@!#@#$@$ crazy!?!??!

Now, enough with the cute Japanese words and spirit infused, soul reaping steel; lets talk about one major difference that has been touched yet (I don't think). All true Japanese antique swords have a zero edge that is sharpened by polishing the blade. As far as agility, finesse and a clean quick slash into someone's flesh, this edge is superior to the secondary bevel found on a Busse sword. This alone pretty much brings us to an apples to oranges comparison since neither is going to perform the task better than what the other was designed to do. One could argue that someone could simply put a zero edge (with the rest of the blade geometry remaining the same) on a butaniku and go for it, but again, against flesh, I don't think it will be as good as the antique. In the hands of a trained practitioner of tamishigiri, I believe the slashing ability of the antique will be superior. However, if the target was made of solid wood, concrete, brick, stone, adamantium, etc. and the sword was in the hands of a chunky guy with no finesse, such as myself, the Busse wins hands down. Remember, a slash is different from a chop.

I am still an amateur to the world of nihonto and if I need to be corrected here, please do so.
 
UffDa said:
I offered one guy a chance to try his 500 year old katana against my Collins machete. He declined. BS walks again. :D
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Well, if I owned a 1958 Ferrari GTO and some guy in a Nissan Sentra rs wants to race me, I will politely decline as well.
 
mainaman said:
I am talking about the vintage stuff, even current master smith made Katanas are not of the same quality as centuries ago, the Tamahagane that is being produced now is just not as good.
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Has this ever actually been tested?
 
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