INFI v. "Ninja" swords

Yea considering what some of those cost, I would question the sanity of someone who would want to destructive test a historical blade that is hundreds of years old and cost thousands!

The same things were said about Damascus back in the day. It took much longer to learn how they made those blades after the secrets of it were lost.

I do think it would be kinda cool to fold a modern day super steel 500-1000 times just for shits and giggles and see what came out of it.

There was a show on discovery where they had a traditional master maker from Japan make a blade vs a modern day guy with modern techniques and they shot at them, splitting bullets and performed similar
 
I am pretty certain there isn't much out there metal wise that will top INFI all the way around, though other steels like DHT'ed SR101 might have a distinct advantage for a sword with the right geometry.

I am down to just three Phoenix phone books left to hack up. If any of you big city dwellers want to send me some old 3" thick phone books I will video what a Ban Tang reground INFI ak-47 can do to them with my poor swordsmanship. Just like the guys that own the several hundred year old $$$$$ swords, I won't D-test this ak on other stuff as it doesn't make sense to ding up Ban's amazing (and expensive and not really offered any longer) edge geometry when I have plenty of cheaper Busses to do that with. It would however show you the difference geometry makes with the same steel, especially if I use a similar sized factory v-edge. I have v-edge users, a ruck and a quasi convexed rucki I could use for comparison, though I don't have the exact same length blade to offer unless someone with another ak user wanted to meet up. Anyone in the PNW, or even Utah, want to set up a Bussekin hangout day anywhere between Missoula and Spokane?
 
Rat Finkenstein said:
modern steels are superior.
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I agree with this. It seems intuitive....steel is manufactured. Modern methods have the element of knowledge and experience, and cutting things with metal is so much more than swords and combat; so one can't say that human knowledge has lost anything with the advent of firearms pushing blades out of common use, at least not with respect to steel quality.

So it would seem to make sense that given similar quality blade smithing, a modern sword should outperform an older one.
 
BlackKnight86 said:
I agree with this. It seems intuitive....steel is manufactured. Modern methods have the element of knowledge and experience, and cutting things with metal is so much more than swords and combat; so one can't say that human knowledge has lost anything with the advent of firearms pushing blades out of common use, at least not with respect to steel quality.

So it would seem to make sense that given similar quality blade smithing, a modern sword should outperform an older one.
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exactly right.:thumbup:
 
AZTimT said:
I am pretty certain there isn't much out there metal wise that will top INFI all the way around, though other steels like DHT'ed SR101 might have a distinct advantage for a sword with the right geometry.
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You might be surprised at the result of how tough INFI really is even through hardened. Originally INFI was even tough at an Rc of 62-64.
 
AZTimT said:
I am pretty certain there isn't much out there metal wise that will top INFI all the way around, though other steels like DHT'ed SR101 might have a distinct advantage for a sword with the right geometry.

I am down to just three Phoenix phone books left to hack up. If any of you big city dwellers want to send me some old 3" thick phone books I will video what a Ban Tang reground INFI ak-47 can do to them with my poor swordsmanship. Just like the guys that own the several hundred year old $$$$$ swords, I won't D-test this ak on other stuff as it doesn't make sense to ding up Ban's amazing (and expensive and not really offered any longer) edge geometry when I have plenty of cheaper Busses to do that with. It would however show you the difference geometry makes with the same steel, especially if I use a similar sized factory v-edge. I have v-edge users, a ruck and a quasi convexed rucki I could use for comparison, though I don't have the exact same length blade to offer unless someone with another ak user wanted to meet up. Anyone in the PNW, or even Utah, want to set up a Bussekin hangout day anywhere between Missoula and Spokane?
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My original post made mention of geometry being the issue with a Butaniku failing at slashing against an antique. If Ban is able to match the geometry of the swords of old, then yes, the Infi would be superior, but so would many other modern steels as well. However, out of the box, in slashing, there is no way. The secondary bevel, blade thick geometry and coating, drag through targets and better serve as a chop, not a slash.

I would like to see the Ban AK47 cut tatami mats as well as phone books, unfortunately, I don't have any right now to donate. If I knew someone that could correct the geometry and strip the coating on my Butanikus, I wouldn't be selling 'em.
 
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Havoc- Yes, Master swordsman Obata used a Hartsfield A2 katana and he said it was the sharpest sword he ever used. That's a statement.
rolf
 
I am talking about the vintage stuff, even current master smith made Katanas are not of the same quality as centuries ago, the Tamahagane that is being produced now is just not as good
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why aren't they not as good? I respect what was done in the past with the tools and material of the past... but there is no way we took steps backwards in the past 100's of years in knife and sword making. Violins I know nothing about but would venture to say the same may also be true. Lore and legends some times trump facts when shaping opinions. Also Wood I wood ( :) ) think is basically the same for the past few hundred years, metallurgy however is vastly different from the past. making ingot from dirt and bone vs computer engineered steels of today... old swords in the museum are very cool, but super steels of today would win everyday of the week if pitted against the vintage stuff.
 
I'm pretty sure that any ancient swordsmith would have been envious of the leaf springs in trucks today. With the level of control we have over individual alloying components it would be virtually impossible to match the quality of modern steel using ancient processes.
 
Cobalt said:
You might be surprised at the result of how tough INFI really is even through hardened. Originally INFI was even tough at an Rc of 62-64.
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Please explain to my piglet brain...was INFI of days gone by metallugically tougher than present-day INFI?

Is so, are you speaking anecdotally, or were there trials run?
 
PeteyTwoPointOne said:
Please explain to my piglet brain...was INFI of days gone by metallugically tougher than present-day INFI?

Is so, are you speaking anecdotally, or were there trials run?
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What I am saying is that INFI was tough enough to go to an Rc of 64. And in those days it averaged over 60. But Busse must have dropped the Rc to cover the people that were using his knives to break up concrete driveways with them. In other words the toughness of INFI is a lot higher than many people assume.
 
UffDa said:
There is and has been an awful lot of BS about Japanese swords. Yeah, some swords that were made by the top smiths were very very good, but there is only so much that
can be done with plain carbon steel. I have had people tell me that a "samurai" sword can cut a .50 BMG barrel in half and cut a floating silk scarf in the air. (The same claims
have been made about the wootz steel blades of the middle east and India.)

I offered one guy a chance to try his 500 year old katana against my Collins machete. He declined. BS walks again. :D

There is really no way to prove the claims. No one in their right mind is going to risk a $$$$$ sword just to prove their point.
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What! Are you crazy? Swinging a genuine Collins machete against some sword? :eek:

That’s no way to treat a rare treasure. :D
 
lobo9er said:
why aren't they not as good? I respect what was done in the past with the tools and material of the past... but there is no way we took steps backwards in the past 100's of years in knife and sword making. Violins I know nothing about but would venture to say the same may also be true. Lore and legends some times trump facts when shaping opinions. Also Wood I wood ( :) ) think is basically the same for the past few hundred years, metallurgy however is vastly different from the past. making ingot from dirt and bone vs computer engineered steels of today... old swords in the museum are very cool, but super steels of today would win everyday of the week if pitted against the vintage stuff.
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http://www.toptenz.net/top-10-lost-technologies.php

I can't verify all the claims on this site, but its a good example of how certain skills, methods and materials are lost with time. Coincidentally, they mention the Stradivari Violins on this page as well.
 
The blades mentioned in this article may have been superior to blades of their time but would not trump modern steel. Also the article makes no claims about the steel in the article being superior to modern day steel, only that it is a lost art of sort.
 
The steel in those blades if real tamahagane was folded enough to give thousands of layers, which is what gave them the uniform grain. These blades will perform great even by today's standards. Until someone ever compares we will not really know how they compare. It would be interesting to see a comparison, but you would have to do it with modern tamahagane since no one is going to waste a precious old Katana doing this
 
I posted this in another thread on this steel. Here is modern Tamahagane cutting 13,000 pieces of hemp rope. No easy task. I don't know how an old tamahagane would work, but if it like this, it is pretty darn good stuff:

[video=youtube;sIHEN3Lq7tA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sIHEN3Lq7tA[/video]

[video=youtube;nDPgk0Ph7Dg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDPgk0Ph7Dg[/video]

[video=youtube;thozKgdAZfY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thozKgdAZfY[/video]
 
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