Info needed on grain direction

Joined
Oct 13, 2005
Messages
1,236
I have a couple of chunks of W2 that are 1 3/4" round, now this is a little big for me to forge by hand. If i slice off pieces with enough metal to forge a blade then weld on a rod on the side of the disc to hold while forging. What efect will forging this with the grain running opposite to how it was rolled have on the finished blade? Will forging it out like this change the direction of the grain or will it stay the same. Thanks for your help!

Bob
 
Forging it will remove the existing grain. The grain (if there is any) is caused by the rolling durring fabrication.
Stacy
 
Thanks Stacy that was my thoughts as well but i have read all kinds of stories so i thought i would ask.
Bob
 
There is always huge confusion here regarding "grain" as in austenite or ferrrite crystals, and "grain" as in the anisotropic effects of rolling the steel in one direction from the ingot at the mill. I really wish there could be different terms developed by industry because it gives no end of grief when explaning either. Perhaps subdivisions of phases (austenite, ferrite etc..) could be referred to as crystals and the directional properties from the mill could be called grain, but unfortunately one would have to overcome the fact that ASTM measure austenite in grain size:grumpy:

Crystalline phases will be wiped out a recreated in forging or heat treating, so they are irrelevent to your question Robert, however the directional "flow" of the steel resulting from inconsistancies being drawn out lengthwise with the steel are not changed at all by our heating cycles and even moderate forging, think of these much the same as if you were looking at a bar of damascus. You can distort them but not easily obliterate them in forging. They can be heavily rearanged by folding and welding, but just turning them 90 degrees and then forging them down will be similar to doing a "w" pattern in damascus.

What will the effects of running them 90 degrees to the length of the blade be? If they are left straight, you would see a difference in impact strength when under conditions where one could even measure the difference, but not as likely in a knife. Some get all giddy imagining it affecting the edge like pattern welding as if it will create a toothy cutter, but I think they are working very strongly off the placebo effect if they do see a big difference.

Either way, if you are going to forge it back down I don't think it would make much of a difference to the knife.
 
And that directional "flow" is the impurity and carbides following the rolling direction. Grain is easily recrystallized so that's easily changed unlike the carbides and impurities.
 
Perhaps subdivisions of phases (austenite, ferrite etc..) could be referred to as crystals and the directional properties from the mill could be called grain, .


It was always a touchy point in my studies, where a homogenous 'grain' was referred to as a 'crystal' in some texts. Whereas in other texts a crystal is one single crystal unit. Makes it a bitch trying to learn the stuff.
 
Like many other fields you have to understand the context. Atoms form crystals ,a group of crystals forms a grain. Rolling can cause anisotropy [different properties in different directions] which can be very important in some applications. ...The "grainy" structure is of course due to oxide and sulphide inclusions. These also can cause different properties in different directions. There are certain alloying elements that can make the inclusions round rather than elongated which is better !
 
Back
Top