Initial impressions : Becker C/U7

[Mike Turber]

I am in no way picking sides here but it has been my experience and testing results that no knife has ever beaten a Busse, EVER!

Not only did I test several knives against the Busse, I had Jerry put his money where his mouth was, LIVE at the Blade Show a couple years back. The results are all right here on BFC.

If anyone would like (although I have tried this before and so has Jerry) I am willing to put on a LIVE demo of knife cutting ability at the next Blade Show.

Now the question is really been put forth as to wether or not the Busse is worth the extra money. That is only for the consumer to decide and it looks like they make that decision everyday on their own quite well. And guess what? Both Busse, Becker and Cold Steel and others still sell quite well. That makes everyone happy, or does it?

Anyway have fun

 

[Cliff Stamp]

backpacker :

I would rather work a lttle harder chopping a tree down for an emergency shelter, than carry a blade twice as heavy all day long.

Power walking (using wrist / ankle weights) used to be promoted as a way to increase weight loss, however when looked at to see if in fact it actually caused a greater caloric burn, it was found that the increase was insignificant. If you are carrying around an extra pound this burns ~one more calorie an hour. On the other hand, a few extra ounces in the right place on a knife, and a shift of balance can change the chopping ability many times to one. Now for felling, you can use a baton, but that is very awkward for limbing and brush clearing in general. Time is also a critcal factor. The point about how much ability you need though is important, nothing beats experience.

Brian, first I would like to state that with any enviroment some previous experience would vastly be preferred to an excellent knife over just a decent one. If at all possible, spend some time before you commit to a dedicated long term situation. Just such things as the the way in which the wood grows, the ability to find dead wood, rock formations for shelter, fresh water, how the wood burns, how it cuts, the types of animals / plants, frequency of meeting other people, distance from towns, weather patterns, etc. . Anyway, here are some quick and very sketchy commets on some of the standout seven inch knives I have used :

Cold Steel Recon Scout :

-chops well because of weight and balance, cuts decently well, but the edge is a little thick, thin it out a little and you have a decent blade
-guard gets in the way of a lot of grips
-tip is too thin for breaking apart wood quickly
-steel tends to chip rather than roll and rusts rather easily
-coating comes off really quickly
-handle is insecure and not durable, this is the critical problem

Mission MPK A2 :

-direct improvement over the CS Recon Scout in all areas except the too thin tip
-better handle (ergonomic, secure, durable), better coating, better edge geometry, similar steel
-fully enclosed grip, very strong in cold climates

Mission MPK Ti :

-the high durability of the Ti allows the thin tip to be enough and the Ti is immune to any degredation due to corrosion
-serrations are very aggressive and last for quite some time
-is too light for chopping, the critical problem
-edge gets bent/impacted rather than chips, good thing

Becker CU/7 :

-simply excellent edge geometry, cuts very well (better than MPK NIB), and yet handles heavy wood splitting with no durability problems
-handle is more durable than Cold Steel, not as much as MPK, but easily enough for long term use outside of beating it off of rocks / metal
-doesn't chop well enough, that is the critical factor
-tip is too thin for wood breaking/prying (on inspection, have not actually checked this yet)
-standout sheath, need to use it some more to check durability
-extended tang for hammering
-coating is much better than Cold Steel, not in the same league as Missions

Strider WB :

-too thick edge and primary grind to cut or chop well
-tremendously strong both in tip and main body
-grip is secure, however very difficult to keep clean.
-standout sheath
-extended tang for hammering

TOPS Steel Eagle :

-edge and primary grind are too thick to cut or chop well
-stronger points that the above except for the MPK-Ti and WB, so wood breaking is easier, also a good splitter
-handle is very abrasive, but also very secure for the same reasons.

Reeves Project I :

-standout cutting ability, alongside the Becker, and with a higher chopping ability than the MPK-A2 (from memory and some notes)
-the handle is abrasive, but workable, but a killer in the cold
-the point is a little weak from inspection, never broke it, but would be a little careful with it, a little better maybe than the MPK, but no where near the Fallkniven, TOPS, etc.
-can get glances due to the round handle and primary grind if you get a little relaxed (injury, heavy fatigue, cold etc.)
-coating is much better than Cold Steel, not in the same league as Missions

Fallkniven A1 :

-great splitter, very strong tip, not in the same cutting class as the Becker, but similar chopping ability
-better durability handle wise than the Cold Steel but no near the becker
-extended tang for hammering

Busse Basic :

-cuts and chops well NIB, strong point for breaking up wood
-I would thin out the edge a little, to raise wood working ability and break apart bone istead of chopping
-handle is a not as durable as the Becker, but rips and tears can be sealed with open flame
-fully enclosed grip (very strong for cold climates)
-handle is little insecure with slippery hands, needs more aggressive texturing and a larger guard
-needs an extended tang
-excellent steel, standout in durablity over the above
-standout sheath, for kydex
-coating is much better than Cold Steel, not in the same league as Missions

TAC-11 :

-edge is nice and thin and can cut well and maintain a high durability level
-point is not as strong as the WB, but much more than the MPK-A2, can easily handle wood breaking with just a little care
-is too close to neutral balance to chop well, can be lashed to a pole to make a bill-hook, most knives can do this, but it is very easy with the TAC-11
-handle is decent in full grip, but very abrasive in a partial hook grip, this is the critical factor
-excellent steel choice (high impact)
-excellent hammer poll
-standout sheath

In short my preference would be like

1) Basic
2) Project
3) Mission MPK-A2
4) Cold Steel Recon Scout (short term, otherise dead last, handle issue)
5) Mission MPK-Ti
6) Becker CU/7
7) TAC-11
8) Fallkniven A1
9) Strider WB
10) TOPS Steel Eagle

Some comments :

The first two knives are really close in ability, the drop in performance to the third is also small, but larger than the first two. The Recon Scout would also be high but the handle issue is just so extreme. There is a huge drop to the fifth knife as here the chopping ability is lost many to one. Five, six and seven are very close and the performance switches from one area to another in which one is best. The last three are a big drop again, and here you start to see a lot of over building. They are excellent prybar / splitters, but cutting is a problem. Nine is a large drop off over eight. Nine and ten are very close to each other.

If we remove chopping, by either I have a small saw or axe or decent machete, or the wood is just really soft, or the landscape such that I would not have to chop up much, then the list would get radically reordered (the Becker makes a huge jump for example). Similar, if I wanted a higher priority on strength / toughness for a lot of prying and high impact work, the WB makes a large jump as do the Steel Eagle and TAC-11. A lot of this is of course dependent on personal ability. For example if I could hook grip chop with the TAC-11 without it mangling my middle finger, it would be much closer to the Basic. There are more details in the reviews and any questions on why or whatever fire away.

-Cliff

 

[Steelhed]

As usual I can't add much to what Cliff Stamp has already posted, but here's my take on the subject:

I do not own a Becker CU/7, but I do own a Campanion and a Brute. I also own a Falkniven A1 and various Busse's, including all of the Basics. After using them all for tasks as simple as food preparation to things like limbing trees I would rate them as follows:

1. Busse Basic #7 - Holds and edge like no other knife I own, balances perfectly in my hand, resharpens easily with a chock stick or diamond hone, and rides in a serviceable Cordura sheath. I live in Alaska and the Resiprene handle is wonderful bonus during the winter. Exposed tang knives can actually cause frost bite if grabbed by a bare hand when the temperature is well below freezing.

2. Busse Satin Jack CG - While the blade is not as long as the Basic #7, this knife performs similarly. The Micarta handle and exposed tang limit its use during winter months, but it saw quite a bit of use last summer. Gotta love that INFI steel too. It does hold an edge.

3. Falkniven A1 - I like this knife and it's steel. It holds an edge well, has a good balance and again the handle prevents a chilling cold weather grab. The point penetrates well, but the edge profile is a little too obtuse compared to the Busse for general cutting needs. The sheath is Kydex which is okay, but tends to crack when it gets real cold.

4. Campanion - I have smaller hands so the handle is a bit large for me on a knife this size, and it can be slippery when my hands sweat. The exposed tang gets cold in the winter if I wear it exposed on my belt. Again, Kydex type sheath. The steel does not hold an edge as well as the A1, and certainly not as well as the Busse Basic or Satin Jack. It does touch up easily though. The edge will corrode much faster than the Busse or A1. Yes, the blade is shorter on the Campanion, but its profile and weight is similar to the longer bladed knives.

I use and like all of these knives, but if I could have just one, it would be the Busse Basic #7. Now if you want to go down to smaller blades or up to bigger blades that would be a horse of a different color then wouldn't it.

 

[hd2k_va]

2nd place seems like a pretty high rating for a knife with a terrible hand and weak point? One of the things I like about your work is the emphasis on usable, comfortable handles. The Project is really bad in this regard. The high ranking is confusing.

I'm also surprised you ranked CS above Becker too. The only point you list in which the CS exceeds the Becker is chopping. The Becker has a better handle, better coating, better steel, and better edge geometry. I know you called chopping your "critical factor", whatever that means, for this list. But still, the Becker is comfortable and doesn't chip and roll when you chop hard wood. I'll take Becker over project any cold or bare handed day, and over a chipped out CS too.

 

[Brian Jones]

hd2k_va,

Hey, c'mon, cut Cliff a little slack!

Cliff's response was excellent -- he emphasized that particular circumstances, enviroment, and terrain would alter the choices, which was a very necessary and prudent caveat prior to his list. Then he described each knife in a little detail, with his views of the pros and cons, which means that all of us can read his list, but also have a little more info to apply to our own preferences and needs.

I asked him a somewhat difficult question, very broad in scope, just to get an idea of what he thought about all the blades he tested. He ansered with what HIS preferences are, and it's cool if yours or mine are different.

Best,

Brian.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

The other knife I forgot to mention was :

SOG Seal :

-similar to the A1 in design and abilities, except for a lower performance edge geometry cutting wise and a lower grade steel; softer, weaker, lower abrasion resistance, but higher corrosion resistance and probably ductility and impact toughness
-no extended tang
-low grade Kydex sheath
-dual guard interferes with overhand grips

It would go after the A1 in the above list, and would not make a significant jump if pure cutting ability was the critical factor as it is one of the worst blades from that point of view, similar to the WB. If toughness and overall durability was the main requirement then it would move up as for example it has a much stronger tip than the CU/7 (based on geometry), and is stronger throughout the main body with a much more robust edge profile.

hd2k_va :

[Project]

2nd place seems like a pretty high rating for a knife with a terrible hand and weak point?

When I first got the Project I had assumed it wasn't even functional because of the handle, and in fact as I was busy with a few other knives I loaned it out for awhile and this was the general agreement. Unless you were willing to wear gloves all the time, it wasn't workable as it was like trying to hold on to a rasp. When I first used it I as well found it uncomfortable, especially during the harder work like chopping. However after awhile my hand adapted and it didn't bother me anymore. Towards the end the only thing I could not do without irritation was hard stabs, it didn't take many impacts before the skin turned red as was about to tear. However it was very secure, and the problem with stabbing is only minor when compared to the general comfort during cutting and chopping. As with all handle issues this is very person dependent, there are individuals who find the handles on the larger TOPS blades very comfortable and the last time I used them I could not do any significant work with them at all.

In regarding the point, yes from inspection on geometry and memory of some light flexing, it doesn't have the durability of the Basic, A1, SEAL 2000, WB, Mission MPK-Ti, TAC-11 and Steel Eagle, however it is in a similar class as the Mission MPK-A2, Becker CU/7, Recon Scout, I would put it slightly above actually, with the Becker this is something I will confirm later. The only time this comes into play with wood working (generally) is with breaking apart wood, in the winter ice picking is a common use, but all the points in the above are easily strong enough for that. So basically you change your method, you work much shallower in the wood and don't flex the blade pasts its breaking point, this of course isn't trivial, unless you have broken something very similar to it before you don't have much to go one. However in general, even very brittle steels don't break before 25 or so degrees. If the point was much slimmer, like on a light hunter then wood prying becomes impossible and that is a significant problem, but none of the above knives have such needle like points.

I'm also surprised you ranked CS above Becker too. The only point you list in which the CS exceeds the Becker is chopping. The Becker has a better handle, better coating, better steel, and better edge geometry.

Yes and better sheath, and doesn't have that annoying guard.

I know you called chopping your "critical factor", whatever that means, for this list.

The primary deciding factor. To get really specific you would write an equation listing the factors and their weights and the scores of each blade in each aspect. The sum then gives the ranking. I did this very roughly in mind with the following list : chopping ability, cutting ability, misc. use, ease of carry, and how durability and handle security and ergonomics effected the former.

But still, the Becker is comfortable and doesn't chip and roll when you chop hard wood. I'll take Becker over project any cold or bare handed day, and over a chipped out CS too

The cold is a large problem with the Project and if the environment was more extreme, say polar, then the Project would move down as enclosed handles become very strong. Note however that the Becker has exposed metal and thus just as quickly becomes unusable. The only difference is the amount of skin lost when it freezes, so it is not a great choice in that environment either.

Steelhed, thanks for the comments, I was curious about the Satin Jack. Your comments about handle and cold I understand readily, I would like to see Busse switch to fully enclosed grips on the INFI line. It was one of the few advantages over the Combat line that the Basic series had.

Brian, the other factor I forgot to mention was that was I alone or with someone else. If I had to rely on an unknown individual then the durability requirement becomes very high because I would have to over build the design to make sure it could handle their skill level and physical ability. For reference here is the list when durability is the critical factor (durability in terms of resisting heavy loads, impacts, corrosion, and scraping, cutting, so handle, blade and sheath issues) :

1) TAC-11
2) Mission MPK-Ti
3) Busse Combat Basic
4) Strider WB
5) Fallkniven A1
6) SOG Seal 2000
7) TOPS Steel Eagle
8) Project
9) Mission MPK-A2
10) Becker CU/7
11) Cold Steel Recon Scout

The TAC-11 is made out of A8 a steel with a very high impact toughness and also has enough cross section and hardness to be very strong. The MPK-Ti isn't quite as strong, but is very ductile and has an extreme corrosion resistance and high impact toughness. The Basic has a very high ductility as well and is also very strong with a very high impact resistance, and does well in very corrosive environments. All of the top three knives will take extreme usage to produce a significant failure such as hitting them repeatedly with a small maul, jumping on them to pry etc. . All of them are very close in regards to an overall durability and which one is best switches depending on which particular aspect you look at (strength, ductility, impact toughness, handle and sheat issues). I would be very confident with all personally as well as loaning them out. The only real concern would be the impaction of the serrations on the MPK.

There is a performance jump from 3 to 4 but 4 and 5 are still very durable and are only lower because of the low impact toughness of high carbon stainless, they are however very strong. They do though have a marked reduction in cutting ability and overall "knife" usage. Six and seven take a bigger jump and now are blades that you can effect with heavy use such as full strength prying in wood, etc. . The last blades are those that can be significantly effected by much lighter work, but still beyond normal knife work, you will want to be prying or hacking into very hard objects like very thick bone and glances off of rock or hardened metal. The Project is a slightly different class, just a bit above the last three, it also cuts as well or better than any of them.

Just looking at cutting ability :

1) Becker CU/7
2) Project
3) Busse Combat Basic
4) Mission MPK-Ti
5) Mission MPK-A2
6) TAC-11
7) Cold Steel Recon Scout
8) Fallkniven A1
9) SOG Seal 2000
10) Strider WB
11) TOPS Steel Eagle

The first two are both very high, with the Becker taking the advantage in regards to deep cuts, and the Project's serrations giving a significant advantage on ropes and such. The Basic is a noticeable drop as the edge is generally heavier for more robust work. The MPK's have edges which are a little thicker still, but still are cutting very well that I would not be displeased with any of them so far. The only real problem with the TAC-11 is the lack of curvature, it is very close to the MPK otherwise and again not something I would find problematic. The Recon Scout has a thicker edge still and now is at the point where I would be wanting better cutting performance, the A1 more so (the new ones might be different). After this the knives make a huge jump and cutting ability takes a significant loss.

There are course other ways to look a the knives such as heavy marine use, weight restrictions, performance/price etc., as well could I modify the knives before using them as some of the above can see huge changes in ranking with less than a half an hours work.

-Cliff

 

[chad234]

I have developed an interest in the Project I as a result of this thread and Cliff's review, I had a possible trade lined up for one but it fell through (he had a prior offer that had to be cleared).....
I am intersted in two possible modifications, first simply wrapping the handle with 550 cord, or perhaps just the sheathing would be the first, the second would be to surface gring off the radius of the handle on the "flats" to create a flat surface, re-kalguard and then wrap.....
Based on my recent work with an Allen Blade MEUK I am starting to develop a fondness for enclosed grips, I thnk that a Busse or Rinaldi with an enclosed micarta grip would be a very useful design.

Re: SOG SEAL
I had a co-worker bring me one to sharpen, it really is not an optimal design for any task. The primary grind was very obtuse, as was the edge bevel. The knife lacked the weight or balance to chop and was not suitable for slicing. The edge on this one was rolled in several places, had some light chiping from hitting a concrete subfloor and was extremely dull from cutting carpet. I removed a fair amount of metal using a DMT edge aligner and finishing up on a spyderco 204. I could not set the edge bevel at an acute enough level to compensate for the obtuse primary grind because the steel was not durable enough, a result of its softness.
This is not a knife I would ever buy, and if I was given one would trade or give it away in short order....
Although 440A is very corrosion resistant, this aspect is somewhat muted by the bead blasted finish, which I have found to have a large impact on a steel's relative oxidization rate...
The grip was rather square, the handle material was akin to Cold Steel's Kraton which I particularly dislike....
I don't mind giving up some area of performance for a larger gain in another, but it is silly to design a knife that offers poor performance in every category except that it looks cool.....

Stay safe,
Chad

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Chad :

[Project I]

simply wrapping the handle with 550 cord, or perhaps just the sheathing would be the first, the second would be to surface gring off the radius of the handle on the "flats" to create a flat surface, re-kalguard and then wrap.....

After working with a few Striders I was quickly impressed with cord wraps mainly in regards to grip security. However it quickly became obvious that in actual use there were a number of significant problems, the worst of which was cleaning the cord. For example I was cleaning some fish and I wanted to experiment with a WB and I realized that I had no desire to try to get fish guts out of the cord, a trivial matter for a solid Micarta handle. I have worked with cord grips on my SHBM on occasion and always abandon them after a time as they get slick, for that knife its mainly sap + sweat. If you replace the cord frequently though it is a decent grip.

Based on my recent work with an Allen Blade MEUK I am starting to develop a fondness for enclosed grips, I think that a Busse or Rinaldi with an enclosed Micarta grip would be a very useful design.

Yes, after using fully enclosed grips I would never go back to slabs if I didn't have to. Note however that enclosed grips are much harder to make than just slapping on a couple of slabs, I can't think of any advantages for the ELU of exposed metal in the grip (out side of tangs).

[SOG Seal]

I could not set the edge bevel at an acute enough level to compensate for the obtuse primary grind because the steel was not durable enough, a result of its softness.

Yes, in order to make a knife out of it I had to put it on a sander and reshape the primary grind. The actual edge still isn't what I would call acute, and can't be for the reasons you noted, but the huge amount of metal I hogged off of the primary grind did actually turn it into a pretty functional knife. Here is a shot of it as it looks now :

http://www.physics.mun.ca/~sstamp/images/mission_mpk_sog_seal_reground.jpg

The edge is now formed by one convex bevel which was also extended towards the spine. I also hacked off the upper part of the guard to allow more functional grip variance. This made a huge difference in the cutting ability. For example it does better than the Becker CU/7 whittling hardwoods. Of course its not really the same knife as it was NIB so comparisons don't imply anything about the design or SOG in general as it has been so heavily changed. If I put the Becker on the sander it would only need a few minutes to exceed the heavily ground SOG and it would be more durable besides.

[Note the A2 MPK had its point reground in the above, I broke it digging in some 2x4's]

The thing that I found really surprising about the SOG was the lack of durability of the steel in regards to impact shock considering that it is either 440A or AUS-6A. I was using it to split some wood yesterday and some knotty pieces of spruce were proving to be too difficult so I gave up my wooden baton and used a hammer. This resulted in the spine of the knife being visibly impacted, and then large pieces of the spine broke away, chunks a few mm long, a mm or so wide and as deep. This kind of use, which might sound harsh, don't do anything at all to most knives, the obvious exception being the differentially hardened HI khukuris as they have soft backs so you will see some indentation, no fractures though.

it is silly to design a knife that offers poor performance in every category except that it looks cool.....

For sales, sometimes that is all you need. The Becker Magnum Camp for example is one of the cleanest most functional knife designs I have seen, however I doubt it sells nearly as well as some of the over hyped "tactical" and "seal knives" with wire breakers, tanto points, saw teeth, "speed holes", non-functional serration patterns etc. . For reference the Recondo was even a worse design than the SEAL so many of the elements interfered with each other. I didn't even try to grind a knife out of that. The prices are also very high when you consider that it is production and look at the materials so performance/price isn't even high, rate them compared to the Beckers for example.

Back to the CU/7 :

I had been using it for limbing a lot lately, and the last few times I had been out it hadn't done much so it was sitting in the sheath for about a week and it had rained a few times when I was out, which was ignored as it wasn't even freezing so that's hardly weather. Anyway, I cleaned it up yesterday and sharpened it as I have some edge retention and cutting work to do on hemp. The blade didn't need to be sharpened to keep doing limbing, I just wanted to get in an optimal condition before I did the stock cutting. The blade showed signs of the elements, the edge had significant corrosion, spots about 1.5 mm in diameter, a dozen or so on both sides. No flaking of the coating though, or any visible penetration. I scrubbed it a little, and sharpened it with a couple of waterstones and finishes with CrO. Just a little work with the hones, less than 20 passes per side. Checking the edge under magnification shows no signs of corrosion damage so no deep pitting.


-Cliff

 

[chad234]

RE: SOG:

Yes, after using fully enclosed grips I would never go back to slabs if I didn't have to. Note however that enclosed grips are much harder to make than just slapping on a couple of slabs, I can't think of any advantages for the ELU of exposed metal in the grip (out side of tangs).

Well there may be some added tang as a result of the extra width in the tang, and I have used the tang portion of my Busse SH to pound a few nails (I was putting together a dresser, didn't have a hammer close by, but the Busse was laying in its sheath right next to me....). If the spice has been embelished by filework they can look quite nice. IN all I have really come to like enclosed tangs, The Busse #7, despite being rubber, has an excellent design in this regards. I don't own any right now, but the Mad Dog line of knives have always impressed me with their grip design (problems you have had with Mad DOg notwithstanding)

The thing that I found really surprising about the SOG was the lack of durability of the steel in regards to impact shock considering that it is either 440A or AUS-6A. I was using it to split some wood yesterday and some knotty pieces of spruce were proving to be too difficult so I gave up my wooden baton and used a hammer. This resulted in the spine of the knife being visibly impacted, and then large pieces of the spine broke away, chunks a few mm long, a mm or so wide and as deep. This kind of use, which might sound harsh, don't do anything at all to most knives, the obvious exception being the differentially hardened HI khukuris as they have soft backs so you will see some indentation, no fractures though.

I would rate hammering on a knife with a hammer as being abusive, something that should only be done in an emergency. That being said I used my Estwing hammer to baton a Wustoff kitchen knife through some frozen meat, it survived with only some minor denting... The since I was going through a divorce and my ex-wife was keeping them (despite never having used them) I really wasn't concerend with durablity.....
One aspect of HI's design that I really don't care for is the fact that it is differentaily hardend rather than fully hardened and differentially tempered, though I doubt the core would ever be through hardened using conventional methods because of the thickness, I don't think even a super fast quenching liquid could draw the heat away from the center of that blade fast enough to freeze in in martenstic form, but I could not speak to that with any authority...)
I can tell you that the dead soft spine is basicly in annealed form, and the strength of the Khuk comes from its huge thickness. Since strength is a function of hardness, and having portions of the blade maartenistic and others in austenite form creates stresses and weakness, that a more sophiticated heat treatr would yield a vastly stronger knife........ I have extensivley used a HI BAS, my review from a couple years ago is probably in the HI archive, they are a very strong design and take massive amounts of abuse..... but hammering on the spine would cause damage due to itrs softness....

The Becker Magnum Camp for example is one of the cleanest most functional knife designs I have seen,

Yes Hoodoo has reported that it's cutting performance exceeded his sebenza (much thinner and with a high hollow grind) during certain uses, cleaning small game IIRC.... I have heard that Fisk's personal Magnum Camp with a fully parabolic edge cuts incredible....

The blade showed signs of the elements, the edge had significant corrosion, spots about 1.5 mm in diameter, a dozen or so on both sides

These low alloy, high carbon steel blades do rust with alricity, did you use any protective measures??? What was the exposure like????


Thanks for the update,
Chad

 

[chad234]

In the past I had contended that the sample size of your reviews (usually one) makes it hard to extend the observations from your sample to the general polpulation of that knife. I now realize a major flaw in my argument.
The degree to which you can apply observations from a specific sample to that series of knives in general is largely dependent on the quality control on the quality control of the manufacturer.....
If the manufactuer takes strides to insure that his product is made to close tolerances, in grinding, heat treat and assembly, and has high standards when purchasing materials (such as Busse or CRK) it eliminates a lot of the varibles. The results are such that it is the design package (geometery, material duability, heat treat results) that is really being tested....


Thanks,
Chad

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Chad :

I would rate hammering on a knife with a hammer as being abusive, something that should only be done in an emergency.

Yes, as with any task and its result in regards to durability, it usually isn't the case of looking for damage vs no damage, but rather the extent. If I am out chopping and bang my SHBM into a rock I would not find it acceptable if the blade cracked in half, but it would be reasonable to expect some degree of edge impaction. In this specific case the fracturing seemed odd to me considering the nature of the steel as I have had considerable experience with cheap 440A imports. Also, I banged on the Strider's for example with a hammer more than once and the spine didn't indent (no surprise, as its much harder), but also didn't chip at all. I would be really curious about the nature of the SOG heat treat of 440A that leaves it with an impact toughness lower than that of ATS-34.

One aspect of HI's design that I really don't care for is the fact that it is differentaily hardend rather than fully hardened and differentially tempered

Yes, the lack of a tempering was surprising to me, I have later found it very common in many places with primitive (natural) blade heat treat methods. Ideally, you would want a spring tempered back and a ~fully hardened edge. This would as you note allow the creation of much lighter blades with the same strength and of course more durable spines.

... hammering on the spine would cause damage due to itrs softness....

Yes, my 22" AK has hammer marks on the back where I was beating on it with another large knife.

These low alloy, high carbon steel blades do rust with alricity, did you use any protective measures??? What was the exposure like????

I didn't use anything to protect the edge as I was curious how much visible rusting would be induced as well as would the coating be effected. It was left basically for about a week exposed to the remains of limbing which are various saps, plus some rain, as well as condensation just from coming in out of the cold.

In the past I had contended that the sample size of your reviews (usually one) makes it hard to extend the observations from your sample to the general population of that knife.

Yes, in short, with any measurement you want not only its value but some measure of its certainty. For example lets assume you are out fishing, can you from the size of the first fish caught make a definite conclusion about the general size of the fish in that area. Common sense tells you of course not, you could have caught a runty one or the king of the river. But after you catch twenty or so can you tell somone who is heading out what to expect - yes, of course you can. Common sense also tells you the more you catch the more certain you become about what to expect.

The degree to which you can apply observations from a specific sample to that series of knives in general is largely dependent on the quality control on the quality control of the manufacturer.....

Yes, to use some jargon, you are sampling from a population with known variance and thus you can draw definite conclusions (definite meaning specific probability). In the fish example you just ask the person who manages the farm if the fish first is the expected catch, and they will tell you how far you are from the expected size - simple. Back to blades you just do the same thing. All the reader has to do is ask the maker if they will support the results either way. If my experience is really positive but the maker won't tell you that you should expect the same general abilities then you can't have any confidence in my results. By the way, if this is the case, either way, let me know as I will add a disclaimer to the review. If the maker doesn't know then its obviously not a good sign, and there are lots of them that do know how their blades behave so there is no reason to work with the ones that don't (outside of the obvious - new makers, experimental designs etc.) .

The results are such that it is the design package (geometery, material duability, heat treat results) that is really being tested....

Yes, of course I allow for blade flaws and will duplicate any testing if the maker thinks the blade I used wasn't representative.

The real problems with another person predicting their experience from my results are :

1) the difference in force used
2) the difference in skill in application

[note the personal change in these makes it non-trivial for me to make concrete predictions off of older more isolated results]

Ideally I would like some javascript that would take a skill and strength level from the reader and then rescale the tables to reflect the readers abilities (and add in the variance from the QC issues as provided). I think this is possible, the strength issue being the easier of the two by far. As of late I have noted at times the impact force I use (roughly) and it is easy for someone to check their personal level by simple means and thus estimate where they are in relation to me. However skill is more difficult to quantize and even more complicated how to use it to determine the change in cutting ability and durability.

That being said though, there are still fairly valid conclusions that can be drawn. For example the relative performance will be decently robust. Technique and physical ability still play a role, but to a much reduced extent than in the raw performance. This is why the reviews are so cross-linked as you should not read them in isolation. This is also why I link to outside reference material such as bladeforums, reviews by other people, the manufactures sites etc. . It is also why I link up a thread here so that when someone reads a review they can pop over here and get direct commentary of other peoples experiences. It should all be used to give a more general picture.

Ideally I don't see the reviews main goal to be the definate reference anyway (read them and ignore everything else) so while I do try to make them fairly quantitative it isn't my main goal to eliminate the above two problems though I spend a lot of time looking at it as it is an interesting problem from a numerical modeling point of view. However, in regards to general application, I would much rather the reviews be used to inspire other unbaised commentary from users of all skill levels of various physical abilities as well as definate statements from the makers on the expected performance levels. All of this information, for many blades would then give a very strong resource and hopefully provide insight into the nature of performance, how it is effected, and to what extent by the materials properties (nature of the steel and heat treat) and geometrical aspects. This thread, is an excellent example of exactly what I like to see result.

Note the other critical aspect is of course different people want different things, so my personal opinion of what is important isn't a universal standard. This is why there is as much detail on the performance so this decision can be made by the reader as they can decide how it fares weighted by the qualities they want in the order they want them.

-Cliff

 

[chad234]

Yes, the lack of a tempering was surprising to me, I have later found it very common in many places with primitive (natural) blade heat treat methods. Ideally, you would want a spring tempered back and a ~fully hardened edge. This would as you note allow the creation of much lighter blades with the same strength and of course more durable spines

The Khuks are basicly being "case hardend", from what I understand water is poured form a tea ketlle onto the edge, so there is not even a true quench.... From the heat treat it is amazing that they are so incredibly strong, but I guess 5/8" of 5160 spring steel, even in annealed form, is too strong for a human to break without mechanical aid.
But as has been noted a more advanced heat treat would allow for a high level of strength and reduced bulk. But the increased bulk of the current design package also results in a higher level of chopping power and reduced binding and softness of the steel allows for very high levels of shock absorbtion. Do you happen to know what S7 jackhammer bits RC out at?????

It was left basically for about a week exposed to the remains of limbing which are various saps, plus some rain, as well as condensation just from coming in out of the cold.

Under those conditions the corrosion level is actually not that bad, probably lower than what would have occured in a warmer climate with similar moisture levels.... But I have not seen any definitive studies on corrosion levels and tempature, just a gut feeling and my own clumsy observations....

Note the other critical aspect is of course different people want different things, so my personal opinion of what is important isn't a universal standard. This is why there is as much detail on the performance so this decision can be made by the reader as they can decide how it fares weighted by the qualities they want in the order they want them.

Yes, when I have refered to your reviews as opinions and not fact, I should have specified that I was not talking about, for example, the amount of force that it took to push cut thread (which would be fairly empirical) but rather normative questions such as whether the performance gains of a certain profile were worth the offset in durability, or if the push cutting results of a certain edge finish justified the loss of slicing ability that a different edge finish would net, which are normative questions that each person has to decide based upon how, and for what, they use a knife.
Knife design, like life is a series of choices, some of which are mutually exclusive... factors like cost, weight, abbrasion resistance, impact resistance, fit and finish, grip security, ergonomics, performance and durability snd many others have to be balanced.
My interest in high grade alloys is that they allow signifiant gains in some areas without losses in others. I haven't found the perfect knife yet, and I won't, because different tasks call for different designs.... But I can find knives that are optimized for certain tasks, and others that handle several fairly well. The quest shall continue though.......


Stay safe,
Chad

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Chad :

From the heat treat it is amazing that they are so incredibly strong

It is amazing to me that they can even produce a functional heat treat in any aspect considering how much raw judgement has to be used.

But the increased bulk of the current design package also results in a higher level of chopping power and reduced binding and softness of the steel allows for very high levels of shock absorbtion.

Yes, this is pretty much why I would assume they never had any real need to improve on the method as it fits the standard version very well. However on the newer slimmer models, which are approaching machete class blades, they are encountering some problems from time to time.

Do you happen to know what S7 jackhammer bits RC out at?

S7 has a maximum impact toughness at around 55-57 RC. So I would assume it is somewere close to that. The way impact toughness is measured though means it has a strong strength component, which would not be directly related to how a jackhammer bit is stressed, and thus they might be softer to decrease crack propogation. The do however need a high level of hardness to prevent excessive deformation.

But I have not seen any definitive studies on corrosion levels and tempature

Like most chemical reactions it will be significantly influenced by heat. This is one of the reasons that when grinding blades they can rust in just seconds if you leave them wet. You could probably see this quite readily if you put them in boiling salt water.

... such as whether the performance gains of a certain profile were worth the offset in durability, or if the push cutting results of a certain edge finish justified the loss of slicing ability that a different edge finish would net ...

Yes, these things are all dependent on the user. You can describe the amount of tradeoff, and what you are giving up to gain performance in another area, but you can't decide in general what is the best choice as this "weight" is very person dependent.

For example with the CU/7, the point is slimmed down due to a taper and top swedge. This enhances point penetration, as well as draw cuts into really soft targets (flesh). However it also reduces point strength and overall durabilty. So if you take the CU/7 and Basic which has the "best" point?

Both and neither. It depends on what characteristics you are interested in. This doesn't mean you can say which is best, it just means you have to define what characteristics you are using to make the judgement.

-Cliff

 

[chad234]

Cliff:

It is amazing to me that they can even produce a functional heat treat in any aspect considering how much raw judgement has to be used

Actually the amount of judgement being used in this method is really no more than an ABS smith would use, in fact probably less judgement is involved because of the simplicity of the technique. Heat treating by eye and intuition does take more skill than "recipe" oven heat treating, but this can be developed through experience. I have seen officers that can judge the speed of a moving vehicle with a very high degree of accuracy, butchers who could throw an exact pound of hamburger or turkey on the scale, drywallers who could hang perfect sheetrock without a level or ruler, yet it is plumb and centered...... it all comes from years of experience.....

Yes, this is pretty much why I would assume they never real need to improve on the method as it fits the standard version very well. However on the newer slimmer models, which are approaching machete class blades, they are encountering some
problems from time to time.

I have owned a HI Kumar Kobra, which at the time was the thinnest Khukuri that HI made (I have no idea now). I can't see this as approaching a machete as it was over 3/8" thick, twice as thick as I'd consider the machete class to encompass, it was also fairly narrow (about an inch), which is where the vast majority of the weight savings over the other, standard, Khuks comes from. The narrow blade width results in a thicker primary forged bevel, and lacking the cutting effieciency that is the trademark of the machete class.
I have read some comments on the Kobras breaking, I really don't think it is from the stock thickness. Although, as you have written, reduction in thickness causes a quadraticaly proportional loss in strength, a 3/8" thick piece of 5160 spring steel is still incredibley strong. IF you took a 25 inch long, 3/8" leaf spring in annealed form, you could whack it against a telephone pole until your arms fell off, you're not gonna break it. Take that same piece, fully harden it, then temper it to a uniform hardness of 56RC, you could use it as a pry bar that you'd be hard pressed to break without a cheater bar.....
My theory of the reason that the Kobra series have seen some breakage is that the narrow width, combined with the method of heat treat result a high level of internak stresses within the steel.
In the standard models there is suffient "transition" area between the hardened area and the annealed area to reduce the internal stress levels, where in conjunction with the additional strength from the added thickness, the strength level is high enough to avoid damage.
In the Kobra series, there is no transition area, so you have a case hardend exterior and a soft core, creating high levels of stress throughout the steel..... I think the stress levels results in more breakages than the marginal decrease in stock thickness would result in....
But again I add the disclaimer that this is only my theory, I am not a scientist and I have never heat treated steel........

Although the Kobra series is lighter, for me, it does not balance as well. They have a tendency to twist more in my hand during swings, which would result in a far higher tendency to deliver glancing blows, inducing lateral stress along the edge.... combine that with the effects I theorized above and metal failure in hard use does not suprise me.
Again you see that different compenents of the design package have to be in harmony. It is difficult to change one area of the design without it having a substantial effect upon the others areas.....

Stay sharp,
Chad

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Chad :

Actually the amount of judgement being used in this method is really no more than an ABS smith would use, in fact probably less judgement is involved because of the simplicity of the technique.

To give you an idea of how difficult it is, consider when water quenching was discussed on the forums, a number of well known makers were dead set against it because of the ease of cracking the steel. One of the more complex issues with the heat treatment of the khukuris is the way in which they are tempered. Tom Holt had a very nice post on this in the HI awhile ago. Basically the khukuris are tempered just by the heat being drawn out of the spine of the blade, and thus since the Kobras push the limit of blade stock (for khukuris of this method), the kamis go light on the quench as there isn't much heat in the blade due to its low mass. The problem here then is that it can lead to underhardening, which was the last problem reported.

However even the way in which they are quenched is problematic. Dipping a blade into oil is one thing, pouring a liquid onto a hot blade is another. Trying to control the flow to get the right area hardened, get the right volume presented to the steel, prevent splashes etc., it requires another level of control. All that being said, I have great respect for all who heat treat blades in this method, including all the smiths, ABS and otherwise. When you consider the variables involved, that it can be done by judgement, and done well, is impressive. But of course they do tend to work with the simpler steels, pretty much for this reason.

Interesting comments on the Kobra, which blade length did you have?

-Cliff

 

[chad234]

Cliff,
I just read Tom Holt's post on heat treat, it is excellent. Using residual heat in the spine to bleed through and temper the ede was not a technique I had thought of.
I am still confuesed as to why Kamis pour quench with water rather than using a quenching tank with oil? The only answer that really makes sense is tradition, and the sense of mysticism that thier society places on the making of knives.
I had a 30" Kobra, there was a post here with pics (from when I sold it), the software says it no longer exsists, but if you know a way to revive it, otherwise all my pics of the knife were lost when photopoint went belly up.

http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/009134.html

Take care,
Chad

 

[Darrel Ralph]

Cliff,

I is refreshing to see that you have broken down these knives into a intended use list.

It seems that each has good and bad points in certain situations.

Progress in knife testing (by intended use) gives the viewer a better perspective.

It looks like the BK7 and the Busse are top notch knives overall, each having there own forte'.

Im sure the designers of these knives have there own ideas about what they, and their clientele prefer in the field.

Both of these knives have good "intended" use properties.

Kudos' to Becker and Busse.

I have both knives in my straight knife carry collection. (Busse and the Becker BK7)

I choose the BK7.

Factors:
1. Value for the dollar
2. Lighter, and more rounded performance.
3. I see the flesh cutting tip as a design advantage. I like a knife I can skin animals and whittle with in the field if needed. The production cost for this type of flesh cutting tip is more expensive also. Extra operations are needed to produce the clip point and more heat treating control.
The busse is better for prying. I dont use knives for prying as much as cutting chores.

Great review

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Review completed, tip was stronger than I thought :

http://www.physics.mun.ca/~sstamp/knives/becker_cu_7.html

Blade is now bouncing around a few friends to look at long term use aspects.

-Cliff