Inside Information

Kai Corp.

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May 21, 2013
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It's come up recently that perhaps we should share more info on production run totals, First Looks, insight on how an LE is progressing, that sort of thing.

In the past we were more open than most any manufacturer that I am aware of, but that brought on all sorts of complaints to the point we shut the information window.

A few posts showing that perhaps that window should be opened again.

I guess we'd like to hear more on this subject.

"In the absence of a presence the best estimated presence is in an educated absence."

Statements like: "There is currently no information on availability or number of products that will be produced." are so open-ended as to be cursory.

What facilitates customers, end-users, collectors and enthusiasts is a stream of frequent and open-ended updates on schedules and numbers even within the constraints of production batches, issues, raw materials and changing corporate priorities. All that could be dissemminated and capsulated within the caveat emptor "rules"... Frequently.

An excellent question. How may I as a buyer know what the anticipated size of the production run will be? Is that something disclosed on the Kai site? Will my dealer know?

One of the books I read many years ago when I was involved in a dot com suggested that the seller who provided the most (relevant) information to the buyers would appeal to the geeks, the neophiles, the early adopters, the opinion-setters. They illustrated their point with a restaurant that beside the price, the menu gave all the nutritional information, including cholesterol, protein, carbs, and other information that nutrionally aware people valued, not just calories. Their appeal was very niche, but their niche had the money to support them and they set a trend in the industry that continues to this day (depending on where you eat--but even McDonald's now has that kind of information available on the net).

If Kai provides that level of information for us, the knowledgeable consumer, I would expect them to reap the benefits of enhanced reputation within the marketplace as well as a higher economic profit (yes, I know some argue the existence of economic profit over time--work with me, here).

For example. I have an 0801. I'd like the 0801CF--no particular reason; I'm a knife addict. I think it looks pretty. I just came from the ZT website, and they tell me they have no idea when or how many. Hard for me to plan and budget appropriately. I'm certain others feel the same way.

The knife industry has come a very long way in the past thirty years. I anticipate future changes that will be very important for the manufacturer, the dealer, as well as for the consumer.

Let me toss in an idea. Is there some reason ZT or Kershaw can't run a Dutch auction for the first X number of knives from a production run? (Aside from possible channel conflict.) That keeps the scalpers to a minimum, but lets the serious collector get in early, but still gives dealers a large chunk to play with--you need the dealers, obviously.

It also preserves the most economic profit for the manufacturer. Nice thing about a Dutch auction, we get to set our own price. If we win, epic! If we don't, no harm no foul. But, the process is entirely transparent and filled with information for buyers.

To be clear, I don't mind ZT or Kershaw making a fair profit. Frankly, I think if you guys makes good money, you'll expand, bring in more excellent engineers, even better materials (as difficult as that is for me to visualize), more interesting manufacturing techniques, finishes, and styles. Hard to do all that on a shoestring. As a serious knife addict, I don't mind supporting my pusher, er, manufacturer. If a knife gets too pricy for me, I'll pass (please god, more likely I'll auction the children--wait, I don't have any children), same as people already do today.
 
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I wouldn't mind it, but then you run the risk of what happened the first time. I won't go into detail because that's not the topic of discussion, but I think most of us know what happened. I think if this was to happen again, that threads like First Looks need to be tightly "guarded". ANY criticism must be constructive and be kept to a nicer tone. If things start to head down-hill, then anything like "production run totals, First Looks, insight on how an LE is progressing, that sort of thing" needs to be stopped.
 
The anticipation of a new model and the chase to get one are a large part of the collectors makeup. To not have any info available will hurt sales, at least to major collectors and fans. If the info is given out in a proper way as far as protecting expectations, I see it as a win for everyone.

Furthermore, the recent ban on info has only increased questions from consumers to me, so I would have to suspect it is the same with other dealers as well.
 
I have not been around very long and don't know what lead to the change but I would like to see information like this. I am really looking forward to some of the knives coming out soon (hopefully) but I have absolutely no idea when they might be near, then all of the sudden "boom" and I am scrambling to come up with $400 before they all sell out.
 
Im all for more info....Like it says above as an addict of Kershaw and ZT im having problems planning my money ahead of time, not sure if i should buy one knife because im scared i wont have time to save for next one. I wasnt around when Kershaw/ZT did first looks and production numbers so im not sure what want wrong. But im all for kicking people out of a thread like that...no warning one strike ur out. People should be told if u have nothing nice to say dont post at all and if they do their gone.
 
A lot of a company's information is proprietary. I deal with this kind of stuff all the time. I wouldn't want to disclose labor rates, other direct costs, cost of materials, profit rate, etc to any of my competition. How I achieve a certain price point is my business, and to share it would reduce my leverage to competitors. It's one thing to disclose it to a board of investors, it's another to disclose it to the public.
 
But im all for kicking people out of a thread like that...no warning one strike ur out. People should be told if u have nothing nice to say dont post at all and if they do their gone.
I understand what you're saying, but if nobody says anything, Kershaw/ZT won't know what to change or upgrade on their products. If someone is being incoherent and hostile with their comments, than yes, kick them out or do something with them, but I believe if the criticism is constructive, then we should value their opinion and take into consideration what they're saying (or trying to at least).
 
I can understand the reluctance for specifying release dates (problems happen with other projects, delays, materials issues, etc) but I think it would be nice to have an approximate production estimate for LE's so consumers can gauge what priority level to assign such a purchase. Most of us don't have unlimited funds and need to budget our purchases accordingly. I know I've been one to pass over a purchase thinking I can pick it up later because I bought something else that caught my eye, only to find out the hard way that it's impossible to procure the one I initially wanted because it was so limited! As for first looks, I wouldn't fault KAI for not providing any info until they were ready to start actual production (to protect their intellectual property).
-Greg
 
I understand how frustrating it must be with all the complaints coming in. I also believe there are people who are only happy when complaining about something. Perhaps saying statements such as "we are hoping to make roughly x number of this product". My main reason for desiring a rough idea (and I do mean rough, as I understand it is impossible to know an exact amount of production pieces), is that it lets me know if I really desire a knife just how quickly I need to pre order. On the other hand I would also be satisfied with a response such as "there should be enough to go around for collectors" vs. "serious collectors may want to move quickly on this one". Lol and on a third hand if no numbers are given in advance it isn't my place to complain, I obviously love your products and am going to do my best to get my favorite ones. Now production numbers after a knife is released I am strongly in favor of. It is nice to know just how rare your knife may be. An example would be the blue stonewashed skyline, if I had no clue how rare it was I might be inclined to sell it if I needed some cash and tell myself I will hunt another one down someday. Knowing just how rare that knife is I will never let it go as it would be an extremely difficult task to find a replacement. I feel knowing how rare something is and having one is a large part of the joy of collecting.
 
I understand what you're saying, but if nobody says anything, Kershaw/ZT won't know what to change or upgrade on their products. If someone is being incoherent and hostile with their comments, than yes, kick them out or do something with them, but I believe if the criticism is constructive, then we should value their opinion and take into consideration what they're saying (or trying to at least).
I agree 100% with what u said but believe its hard to balance that line and people will always be trying to tip toe it.......feel to not to have any problems at all it will have to be a one strike your out deal. Ive seen plenty of times where criticism has been taken as disrespect by Kershaw addicts like myself and it turned bad fast. People who love a product and the people they know behind the product don't want to hear any criticism they take it personal.....I don't agree with it and feel feedback is important like you do but ive seen it countless times on here. As much as id like to see people respect one another views and thoughts from what ive seen sadly I don't see that happening unless there is strong rules in place.
 
I'll roll with whatever Kai thinks is best. But I love getting as much info on these products as possible. There are several die-hard collectors on here. I know bringing these type of threads back will put a huge smile on their faces.
 
Pre release information builds hype and in turn increases sales since people can budget their funds in order to purchase the product. Feedback can also be given so if something is glaringly unsupported by fans actions can before full production begins. Updates on LE products would build that hype so people know when crunch time is soon and to get the funds together! Insider looks definitely help, just like previews to a movie if there were no previews people would not know about it and wouldn't buy it.


On the other hand first looks and too much information too early would cause problems from impatient people and competitors with ill intentions. In my opinion information might be best to be limited at best discretion maybe more information closer to production to avoid possible issues.
 
I understand how frustrating it must be with all the complaints coming in. I also believe there are people who are only happy when complaining about something. Perhaps saying statements such as "we are hoping to make roughly x number of this product". My main reason for desiring a rough idea (and I do mean rough, as I understand it is impossible to know an exact amount of production pieces), is that it lets me know if I really desire a knife just how quickly I need to pre order. On the other hand I would also be satisfied with a response such as "there should be enough to go around for collectors" vs. "serious collectors may want to move quickly on this one". Lol and on a third hand if no numbers are given in advance it isn't my place to complain, I obviously love your products and am going to do my best to get my favorite ones. Now production numbers after a knife is released I am strongly in favor of. It is nice to know just how rare your knife may be. An example would be the blue stonewashed skyline, if I had no clue how rare it was I might be inclined to sell it if I needed some cash and tell myself I will hunt another one down someday. Knowing just how rare that knife is I will never let it go as it would be an extremely difficult task to find a replacement. I feel knowing how rare something is and having one is a large part of the joy of collecting.
I agree with this 110%
 
Now production numbers after a knife is released I am strongly in favor of. It is nice to know just how rare your knife may be. I feel knowing how rare something is and having one is a large part of the joy of collecting.

Ditto.
 
The anticipation of a new model and the chase to get one are a large part of the collectors makeup. To not have any info available will hurt sales, at least to major collectors and fans. If the info is given out in a proper way as far as protecting expectations, I see it as a win for everyone.

Furthermore, the recent ban on info has only increased questions from consumers to me, so I would have to suspect it is the same with other dealers as well.

I think that is a great answer. I think it's good to talk and get excited about upcoming knives. If we have no information, than there is nothing to talk about, I don't think it would sell as well. And isn't talking about our knives half of it since we can't just run around the world showing everyone what we have? =)
 
This is getting really complicated and touchy... I think part of the problem is that as consumers we have a hard time understanding the issues that come from spilling a lot of info to hardcore fans AND as a manufacturer, its hard to understand the problems we hard core fans have with being shut off. I know it became a problem for KAI to tell us so much and I know it was mostly well received and appreciated. However a few silly gooses had to make a stink and it became too much to deal with. Now the shoe is on the other foot and being more or less left in the dark has become difficult to deal with on the consumer standpoint after previously being told so much. I think the problems are pretty simple but the solutions are not. Personally, I'd love to know more about what's going on at KAI but I don't want it to be such a burden that it causes issues within the company and the way they do business. In the end, KAI need to do what makes them the most money. Generally that is to make the customer the happiest possible but think about this: we are not the majority of KAI's business I suspect. So reducing the burden of dealing with our crap here by just not saying as much while also irking us (ranging from slightly irked to apparently rabid) is probably more beneficial to them. We all need to deal with whatever they say and do. I do hope we can come to a compromise or something where we get some tidbits but not everything. After all, it does seem that we have a bigger torch carrying mob now than we did before.
 
I'd like to see something like this: LE Product X with a first batch of 200 scheduled to be released in September 2013 with a final total run of 1,000. Caveat emptor: ETA can vary by several months and the final number by several hundred. For regular production ones just an ETA with the same caveats. If there are schedule changes an update would be nice. If there are spec changes as soon as possible. Finally, once all the ones in an LE run are produced and shipped a final tally.
 
Well put.
The info that is given needs to be after the fact, NOT guessing ahead of time. I see no harm in giving out production totals when the run is complete. I would also love to see a heads up on when the new runs have shipped. Not when you think they might ship, that's what caused some hard feelings before. I also don't see the harm in giving out a target production # as long as it is given as a + or- range. Just my two cents.

But I also don't see much use in producing very small runs of a new knife that you can't make money on. The LE runs Tyrade, Volt, Tilt, Speedform, 0777 all had to be a huge drain of time and resources. What you did gain was hype and it should have probably been placed in your advertising budget. To use the LE to help market your name you need all of the talk you can get. LE that you should be able to make money on would be blade steel upgrades or color of scales. Like was done on the Blur ZDP and SG2.
The old shipping thread. http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...ew-Item-Delivery-Dates-and-Information/page24

The anticipation of a new model and the chase to get one are a large part of the collectors makeup. To not have any info available will hurt sales, at least to major collectors and fans. If the info is given out in a proper way as far as protecting expectations, I see it as a win for everyone.

Furthermore, the recent ban on info has only increased questions from consumers to me, so I would have to suspect it is the same with other dealers as well.
 
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