Inside the large Manix--Pics

[STR]

Most will take a good whacking and laugh at you. If you get one that does otherwise simply send it in to Sal and I am sure they will fix you up with one that was personally tested first to pass your whack tests.

Just bring it up with him. Sal is worth giving the benefit of the doubt to and so is Spyderco. They support their products and back up their claims.

Compared to some of the insides of Manix and Mini Manix knives I've seen the contact on that one is ample but not the best I've run across either. I really like the ones that seat all the way down but usually the lip of how much steel sinks where the two surfaces lip together is all that matters on them. Yours appears to have just as much metal touching metal as this one but yet looks like it could sink deeper. Not that its necessary for good lock up. Believe me when I tell you that compared to others I've seen Spyderco ranks up there quite easily as the number one in lockback and other lock type strengths, durability, reliability, and security consistancy across the board. I'd also rank them up there in testing methods to insure they are making them right.

STR

 

[huugh]

I like pics like these :thumbup:

 

[Kaizen1]

Hey Bladeprince,

If its not too late and you're up to it, would you consider opening up your Manix to see how it compares to Bors' pics? I really don't know much about the inside of knives, but my guess is that the lockbar doesn't go in on the tang as far as Bors does.

 

[Cornelis Böhms]

I took my large manix apart for a lint inspection and just have a look and thought I would share.


Closed

Open

Close up of Lock

It locks up deep, but not as deep as on STR's spydie pic on the spyderco forum.

 

[Bors]

I took my large manix apart for a lint inspection and just have a look and thought I would share.


Closed

Open

Close up of Lock

Here is some pics of my ChinookII.
The Lock-up looks consistant with the Manix.

 

[proguide]

Bors, I LOVE pics like these! It looks to me like the lock spring between the 2 are different colors and are not shaped the same way (different bends). Any comments on this, or are my eyes playing tricks on me. By the way my Manix has been going strong since the day I bought it (2 years maybe, I can't remember). A very solid knife for those of you who don't own one.

STR, in your travels, have you come across any old Spydies who had its spring let up a bit, or do they hold their "spring" indef? I have old Buck 110's that get a little weak in the spring. I was wondering if the shape that Spyderco uses avoids this problem?

 

[puukkoman]

Look like good, strong folders with good, strong locks to me.
Thanks for the pics and the comparison, guys!
Alex

 

[4 s ter]

If you had read the entire thread, you would have seen a post where I acknowledged Sal's comment and and that I admitted it was possible I may have one of those knives (although I don't think so). I've never seen so many people repeating each others posts or responding to posts with incomplete information as I do on internet forums. I guess that's the nature of some people...laziness. And what's with the blue letters?

I did read the full thread and saw your acknowledgement - which you left out on this thread You could be accused of posting with "incomplete information" when you leave out important additional information such as Sal's comment about Spyderco's action and imply that this is a common and ongoing problem.

The blue letters are so you can easily see what are Sal's words and what are not - they just highlight the quote.

 

[Kaizen1]

Hey Bors,

Have you done any hard spine whack tests with either of these knives?

 

[Bors]

Hey Bors,

Have you done any hard spine whack tests with either of these knives?

No I have not. One of the things that has always concerned me about spine whack test is the stress it puts on the lock. I know that's what it's supposed to do, however my real concern is the creation of vertical play by over stressing the metal in an otherwise tight lockup.

The question of lock strength was brought up at an MBC seminar in cunjunction with using a reverse grip.
The concern of coarse was catastrophic failure. After some demonstration and slow work you realize that the forces on the lock are not that great. With the edge facing the opponent (reverse grip) the knife is used primarily to hook and redirect after off hand checking followed by the cut. The redirection on a somewhat padded taget (arm) is pulling not striking therefore involving much less force. The hand since it is generally incontact with the target during redirection (but not always) also absorbs some of this force.

If you were to compair the force curve of a redirect on an arm and a spine whack on hardwood the redirect would have a lower amplitude over a somewhat longer period while the spine whack would generate a very sharp high amplitude in a very short time.
Spine whacks unless performed in a controlled fasion are very subjective since no to people will consistantly strike with the same force. For this reason (at the moment) I think the only thing to be gained by stepping out to the shop and performing a spine whack test would be to shorten the working life or destroy an otherwise perfictly good knife.

During the MBC course Mr Janich pulled out a spyderco stainless steel police model and did a "very light" spine whack on the table and it failed. Was Mike showing us just how weak an poorly designed the police was, no actually quite the contrary the knife had seen a lot of use and was worn out. His point, knives wear out with use so check them often and replace when needed. Close examination of the police revealed both the blade and locking bar to be worn as such to no longer function as designed.

If the edges on the lock well of the blade show signs of wear (rounding) then you can bet the lock bar is also worn and it might be time consider rotating in a new knife.

I think I may email either the pics or the link to the pics to Spyderco and ask if this lock up is consistant with the design parameters.

 

[cognitivefun]

His point, knives wear out with use so check them often and replace when needed. Close examination of the police revealed both the blade and locking bar to be worn as such to no longer function as designed.

This is one thing in favor of a framelock or even a liner lock...which give the user a more visible and obvious indication of wear.

 

[Sal Glesser]

No I have not. One of the things that has always concerned me about spine whack test is the stress it puts on the lock. I know that's what it's supposed to do, however my real concern is the creation of vertical play by over stressing the metal in an otherwise tight lockup.

The question of lock strength was brought up at an MBC seminar in cunjunction with using a reverse grip.
The concern of coarse was catastrophic failure. After some demonstration and slow work you realize that the forces on the lock are not that great. With the edge facing the opponent (reverse grip) the knife is used primarily to hook and redirect after off hand checking followed by the cut. The redirection on a somewhat padded taget (arm) is pulling not striking therefore involving much less force. The hand since it is generally incontact with the target during redirection (but not always) also absorbs some of this force.

If you were to compair the force curve of a redirect on an arm and a spine whack on hardwood the redirect would have a lower amplitude over a somewhat longer period while the spine whack would generate a very sharp high amplitude in a very short time.
Spine whacks unless performed in a controlled fasion are very subjective since no to people will consistantly strike with the same force. For this reason (at the moment) I think the only thing to be gained by stepping out to the shop and performing a spine whack test would be to shorten the working life or destroy an otherwise perfictly good knife.

During the MBC course Mr Janich pulled out a spyderco stainless steel police model and did a "very light" spine whack on the table and it failed. Was Mike showing us just how weak an poorly designed the police was, no actually quite the contrary the knife had seen a lot of use and was worn out. His point, knives wear out with use so check them often and replace when needed. Close examination of the police revealed both the blade and locking bar to be worn as such to no longer function as designed.

If the edges on the lock well of the blade show signs of wear (rounding) then you can bet the lock bar is also worn and it might be time consider rotating in a new knife.

I think I may email either the pics or the link to the pics to Spyderco and ask if this lock up is consistant with the design parameters.

I agree with Bors,

The light tap that Michael did will let you know if there is a problem, be it wear, lint, etc. No need to slam the lock by hammering the spine. Any of the locks are good, if made properly. All have their "good points and weak points". All will eventually wear out something. Time, real world experience and that great human capacity, "learning and evolving", makes them beter and better.

If lock reliability is of concern, I would first suggest that you select knife companies that care enough to make it right and cares enough to refine. Keep your lock clean. A light tap once a week or so will let you know the lock is functioning. You know, change the oil, check the tires, brakes, etc.

A lock on a folding knife is a very important mechanism, and one that is far more difficult to consistently make than it might appear.

The locks on the Manix and Chinook have undergone many incremental refinements over the past 3 years. Refinements in size, angles and geometries, materials, heat treats, etc. We think we've got a nice piece, but that doesnt mean that we can't learn and improve. Design and engineering is a work in progress, always, or we'd still be living in (stone) caves.

I might also add that it is a slower moving process than you might think. But we're getting better; humans invented/discovered a sharp rock. They used to to separate matter and thwart enemies. But it took us 10,000 years to learn to tie it to a stick.

sal

 

[STR]

STR, in your travels, have you come across any old Spydies who had its spring let up a bit, or do they hold their "spring" indef? I have old Buck 110's that get a little weak in the spring. I was wondering if the shape that Spyderco uses avoids this problem?

I've replaced many lock back springs from many different models and makes from all manufacturers over the years but only one Spyderco spring which was broken on a pre diver folder I think it was called that a customer sent to Spyderco first as I recall, but didn't want to lose since it was so old and discontinued and one of his all time favorites. Somehow he found out about me, maybe from who he talked to there I don't know. The spring on that one was broken and half was missing. For what it is worth this knife was often used in salt water which more than likely took its toll on the spring. It held up even in that environment for a long time though.

On other models of lockbacks other than Spydercos I have replaced springs and sometimes just rebent them a bit to bring them back up to snuff. This is tricky business when it comes to bending these items and sometimes if you bend one too much you will actually do more harm than good.

User knives wear and even the best ones will eventually see a time when you have to say its time to retire it. Granted it may be your grandchild that retires some and you may be the one doing it with others. I know of no way to predict. I've seen heavy duty springs go out in short order and last many years. I've seen light duty smaller springs last a long time and also break so you just don't know. As with anything mass produced from different batches sometimes it has nothing at all to do with the manufacturer of the knives when there is a problem but is more to blame on the manfacturer of the metal they bought to do it. Metal, even today can be good in one batch bad in another and the best ever from yet another and as is often the case you don't know its bad until it breaks and you can see inside it to get a better look at voids, air bubbles or other signs of a bad batch. I've seen some that wuite frankly surprised me that they lasted as long as they did. Believe me you can often times tell a cheapo blade steel from a good one just from seeing the steel once a tip breaks. If there is one thing I've learned in my working knives its that the old saying that you get what you pay for holds true when it comes to a premium blade steel over a cheaper one. Some of the 'surgical stainless' blades I've retipped have been scary. (which is probably why they broke in the first place)

Even through all this writing and reading about the lock back and some of the faults its still my favorite lock type and perhaps my choice for the most long lived of all types of locks. I like the Axis lock but comparitively speaking it and the ball bearing lock among other new ones from recent years are all new kids on the block compared to the lock back. We'll see in thirty, forty, or fifty years or more how these newer lock springs are holding up for wear, life expectancy, availabliltiy and all other issues and angles of them and get a clearer picture of which is deserving of the number one ranking. For me, I have not yet seen any other lock types with the longevity you can expect from a lockback.

STR

 

[Kaizen1]

No I have not. One of the things that has always concerned me about spine whack test is the stress it puts on the lock. I know that's what it's supposed to do, however my real concern is the creation of vertical play by over stressing the metal in an otherwise tight lockup.

That's my concern as well.

Hey Sal,

Bladeprice posted a video where he did some moderate spine whacks on his Manix and the lock failed. As Bors stated, I would be worried about ruining the lock in an attempt to finding out if it works at the level it was designed to work at. I'm not sure if Bladeprince's Manix would've failed with a very light tap. How would we be able to determine if we have a faulty lock (like Bladeprince's) without ruining a perfectly good lock?

 

[Sal Glesser]

As I understand it, the piece was purchased used. difficult to know the history? It's supposedly coming back to Spyderco, where we will put it on the machines (shape, Rc, etc.) and see what the problem was. We'll fix it and make sure we don't make that mistake again. If it's just been "beat to death", then we will charge for that repair.

Once a lock fails, it will fail every time, unless something is changed. In a lockback, it might be lint in the lock well is filled with lint, which can be cleaned, or it can be permanently altered:

rolling the corners
bending the lock bar shaft
bending the pivot pin(s) or other pins
coining the lock interface
bending the cutout (framelocks)

I think you can see what I'm talking about.

lock parts are little bits of hard metal designed to interface and held in position with spring tension.

I think the greatest lock problem is lock ingorance. The more you learn about knives, the less likely you are going to expect that if you hammer these bits of metal, they will resist all force. Kinda like driving your car into a pole to see how strong the bumper is.

If the lock geometry is altered in the spine wack, it will be permanent. If a light tap is used, a problem is usually detected. the problem can be solved (eg clean, send back to mfr, etc.) or the knife retired, having given you whatever amount of service it had.

Those of you that want a SD piece that is 100%, check out a small fixed blade like the Perrin Street beat, some of Mike Janich's designs, Dozier's designs, etc. They can production of custom. (We've got a lot of really good custom makers in our industry). SD is a serious question that deserves a serious answer. It also begs a legal question (why do you carry this?)

I prefer the convenient of carry (& legality) of a folder, So I make sure it's sharp, clean, and I tap the spine occassionally to make sure there are no "hidden" problems.

Just my opinion.

sal

 

[bladeprince]

Originally Posted by Bors
No I have not. One of the things that has always concerned me about spine whack test is the stress it puts on the lock. I know that's what it's supposed to do, however my real concern is the creation of vertical play by over stressing the metal in an otherwise tight lockup.

That's my concern as well.

Hey Sal,

Bladeprice posted a video where he did some moderate spine whacks on his Manix and the lock failed. As Bors stated, I would be worried about ruining the lock in an attempt to finding out if it works at the level it was designed to work at. I'm not sure if Bladeprince's Manix would've failed with a very light tap. How would we be able to determine if we have a faulty lock (like Bladeprince's) without ruining a perfectly good lock?

After the test, the lock still felt tight and visual inspection under magnification showed the locking pieces still "crisp" and not rounded in any way. I am not a "knife tester" but I'm guessing its the initeria of the "whack" that makes the locking (tenon) bar jump out of its "socket" (motice). I can repost the movie link here if anyone would like to see it.

Regards

 

[Bors]

bladeprince I would be interested in seeing the video.


Sal,
In the pics the lock bar does not fully seat in the blade lock well. Is full seating necessary for rated strength?


Bors

 

[Kaizen1]

Bors,

Bladeprince's video is in this thread:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=432805&page=4

 

[Kaizen1]

After the test, the lock still felt tight and visual inspection under magnification showed the locking pieces still "crisp" and not rounded in any way. I am not a "knife tester" but I'm guessing its the initeria of the "whack" that makes the locking (tenon) bar jump out of its "socket" (motice). I can repost the movie link here if anyone would like to see it.

Regards

Hey BP,

Would you be able to tell if anything might be wrong with the lock with very light spine whacking (without bringing the lock to failure)?

 

[bladeprince]

Hey BP,

Would you be able to tell if anything might be wrong with the lock with very light spine whacking (without bringing the lock to failure)?

Here is the video showing the failure:
http://media.putfile.com/Manix-lock-failure

The prevously posted inspection I did was with the knife together using a high intensity flashlight and magnifying glass (different powers). I decided to finally take it apart and see what was going on. I believe the picture says it all. The machining on my Spyderco has been done poorly. The flat surfaces of the lock do not meet, which makes the lock mechanism weak. After seeing this, I suspect that when I send it to Spyderco with a picture, the movie, and an explanation, that they will replace it and the problem will be solved. I cannot say for sure, but it looks like this could be one of the defect knives that Sal was speaking about. To me, it explains the "whack test" failure. I'm actually glad to see this. I love the Manix and want to continue using one but trust in the safety of a knife's lock (within reason) is obviously important.

Click on picture to enlarge.
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