Inspect my heat treat

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Jun 3, 2017
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I have heard of people heat treating coupons and checking grain pattern. I did it once, and didnt see anything. I dont know what to look for. I did it again and took a pic. It snaps pretty easy, i broke this 3.25" spring into 4 pieces with my hands. Steel is 1095, put in a hot oven at 1475 and held for 10 min, then room temp canola oil quench in a half gallon bucket.

TGj0nHZ.jpg


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The ends just look solid gray. I dont see any lumpiness or change of color at all. All the edges at the fracture are fairly sharp, but they could be sharper i guess? One of the breaks has an interesting flake, it looks even and edges are sharp. I dont know what is significant.
 
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To whatever degree it is possible to judge from this photo, it looks fine. It looks like it has consistent, small grain size. I am assuming it was normalized. I wouldn't worry about it. Assuming the above is true and your oven is holding the soak temperature well (it looks to be based on grain size), I would think your heat treat regimen is fine. Because you were able to easily break by hand, I am guessing you are achieving full hardness. It is possible you would see some improvement with a fast quench oil, but I think for that size stock the canola is probably fine. Preheating the oil may also help achieve a faster cooling rate. I am guessing this would only really matter for thicker sections.
 
I experimented with lighting and the flash on my camera and finally got a good pic. My eye sight is terrible, by the way. Up close i could not see the color difference, but it is there. Is the outer layer decarb? This concerns me since i usually grind pretty close to final size before heat treat. I make small slip joints by the way, my knife blades are < 3" and the blades are usually around 0.060" or thinner when i heat treat. This section of a spring that i broke is 3/32" by 1/8", for reference.

AQtolfc.jpg
 
It could be decrb, but that layer looks thick for a 10m soak. It may be inconsistency in grain size. you could try toolwrap id you worry about decarb. File test the piece. I would guess that if it is serious decarb, you would have to cut through most of that layer before you skate a file. If it skates, I wouldn't worry overmuch. you could always try grinding thicker, but then you may want to switch to an engineered quenchant.
 
Where's your 1095 from? Are you normalizing twice, and thermal cycling before austenizing (hardening)? If not, you should. Most steel does *NOT* come from the mill/steel supplier in the best condition to harden from and get the best results. Also, from oven to oil with the 1095, especially using Canola instead of Parks 50, needs to be as fast as you can move, smoothly into the oil, and vigorously agitated (slicing motion in the "cutting direction" of a blade, or moved vertically up and down if you have a tall quench tank).

If you're dead set on using 1095, I would highly recommend investing in 5 gallons of parks #50, if for nothing else but piece of mind.


I will test your hardness, and look at your grain in person if you'll send me your samples, recommend send me one tempered at whatever your target RC temp is, and let me verify.

Just looking at the second photos, it looks larger than I'd like to see, but, breaking steel doesn't accurately reveal grain size, as you can create jaggedness from fracturing or microfracturing that looks like large grain. It doesn't look huge, but it doesn't look like glass either (which is what I want to see).

However, if you're not at least normalizing twice, you should be, and I wouldn't trust 1095 from ANYBODY that hasn't been fully thermal cycled. There is a common misconception among people that only do stock removal that as long as they don't forge, all they have to do is harden, and it'll be the best HT possible. That's placing an awful lot of faith in the mill, and if the stock is fully spheroidized, it DEFINITELY needs a full thermal cycle regime if you want optimal performance IMO, as you'll have very large pearlite grain that's optimal for machining, but shit for making knives.

I'm not a metallurgy expert by any means, or do I claim to be the most knowledgeable, but I do make damascus for a living and get a lot of feedback from customers based on how I treat their steel before they get it, and how they treat it afterwards. As long as you compensate for de-carb, doing what you can (thermal cycling) to reduce grain, can only help, and *ANY* machining, even drilling a pivot pin hole or cutting out a blank, mandates normalizing.


I'd be happy to go in-depth with my recommended HT procedure for 1095 via private channels Randy.


Also, yes, simple carbon steels will decarb VERY quickly at austenizing temps in an HT oven, much more than most people realize. Not only that, but unless you're starting with precision ground stock, there's very likely quite a lot of decarb on the outside from the mill. Most of us making small slipjoints grind our bevels completely hard, and I always do a finishing pass with the surface grinder after hardening.

If I had surface ground the piece before hand, past all decarb, it's very thin, but from the mill, or billet, or whatever, it's typically quite thick. With medium and large fixed blades, you've typically got lots of finish grinding to do to remove it, but with thin little slipjoints, you need to be careful. Obviously if you rough grind before HT you'll get past it, and only have a little after soaking at austenizing temp, but if you normalize and thermal cycle before hardening, you'll have a lot more than you'd likely expect.

Also, you're much more likely to introduce warp with any inconsistencies (even thousandths) in geometry from one side to another, so why bother rough grinding before hardening? It makes every little sense, if you're using mono steel. I often forge damascus slipjoint blades, to make the most of the material, and to manipulate the pattern, but I *NEVER* do for mono steel.
 
It could be decrb, but that layer looks thick for a 10m soak. It may be inconsistency in grain size. you could try toolwrap id you worry about decarb. File test the piece. I would guess that if it is serious decarb, you would have to cut through most of that layer before you skate a file. If it skates, I wouldn't worry overmuch. you could always try grinding thicker, but then you may want to switch to an engineered quenchant.

It's likely because he's using bar stock for these coupons that haven't had the decarb from the mill removed in the first place.
 
All the files i have except diamond skates once i lightly sand the scale off. You know i have made knives almost a year now and never gave much thought to the heat treating process until now, even after building my oven. But it is time i do it the best i can.
 
It's likely because he's using bar stock for these coupons that haven't had the decarb from the mill removed in the first place.

This particular piece is 3/32" 1095 from Jantz. Not really sure what state it is in when i get it. I have not really thought or worried about it until now.

I always cut my springs from the middle of the middle of the bar stock since the edges of the bars arent very flat and i want the spring as flat as possible. So i dont think mill scale from the factory explains why the color difference is present on all 4 sides
 
Where's your 1095 from? Are you normalizing twice, and thermal cycling before austenizing (hardening)? If not, you should. Most steel does *NOT* come from the mill/steel supplier in the best condition to harden from and get the best results. Also, from oven to oil with the 1095, especially using Canola instead of Parks 50, needs to be as fast as you can move, smoothly into the oil, and vigorously agitated (slicing motion in the "cutting direction" of a blade, or moved vertically up and down if you have a tall quench tank).

If you're dead set on using 1095, I would highly recommend investing in 5 gallons of parks #50, if for nothing else but piece of mind.


I will test your hardness, and look at your grain in person if you'll send me your samples, recommend send me one tempered at whatever your target RC temp is, and let me verify.

Just looking at the second photos, it looks larger than I'd like to see, but, breaking steel doesn't accurately reveal grain size, as you can create jaggedness from fracturing or microfracturing that looks like large grain. It doesn't look huge, but it doesn't look like glass either (which is what I want to see).

However, if you're not at least normalizing twice, you should be, and I wouldn't trust 1095 from ANYBODY that hasn't been fully thermal cycled. There is a common misconception among people that only do stock removal that as long as they don't forge, all they have to do is harden, and it'll be the best HT possible. That's placing an awful lot of faith in the mill, and if the stock is fully spheroidized, it DEFINITELY needs a full thermal cycle regime if you want optimal performance IMO, as you'll have very large pearlite grain that's optimal for machining, but shit for making knives.

I'm not a metallurgy expert by any means, or do I claim to be the most knowledgeable, but I do make damascus for a living and get a lot of feedback from customers based on how I treat their steel before they get it, and how they treat it afterwards. As long as you compensate for de-carb, doing what you can (thermal cycling) to reduce grain, can only help, and *ANY* machining, even drilling a pivot pin hole or cutting out a blank, mandates normalizing.


I'd be happy to go in-depth with my recommended HT procedure for 1095 via private channels Randy.


Also, yes, simple carbon steels will decarb VERY quickly at austenizing temps in an HT oven, much more than most people realize. Not only that, but unless you're starting with precision ground stock, there's very likely quite a lot of decarb on the outside from the mill. Most of us making small slipjoints grind our bevels completely hard, and I always do a finishing pass with the surface grinder after hardening.

If I had surface ground the piece before hand, past all decarb, it's very thin, but from the mill, or billet, or whatever, it's typically quite thick. With medium and large fixed blades, you've typically got lots of finish grinding to do to remove it, but with thin little slipjoints, you need to be careful. Obviously if you rough grind before HT you'll get past it, and only have a little after soaking at austenizing temp, but if you normalize and thermal cycle before hardening, you'll have a lot more than you'd likely expect.

Also, you're much more likely to introduce warp with any inconsistencies (even thousandths) in geometry from one side to another, so why bother rough grinding before hardening? It makes every little sense, if you're using mono steel. I often forge damascus slipjoint blades, to make the most of the material, and to manipulate the pattern, but I *NEVER* do for mono steel.

I have just been cutting out, rough grinding, heat treating, and then finish grinding. No normalizing at all. I cannot afford a surface grinder right now, but that and a mill (for one piece liners, bolsters, catch bits, etc) are tied for next piece of equipment i get when i can. I am on my very last bar of 1095 and then will be using some other steel. I am thinking precision ground O1.

I am not overly concerned about perfecting 1095 heat treat, as i plan on changing steels. But i do want some kind of frame of reference and start underatanding what a proper heat treat looks like.

Sounds like using precision ground steel might help with factory mill scale. I think a low alloy steel like O1 needs a short soak time.

I guess what i need to know now is what is my best strategy until i get a surface grinder? Using precision ground and a low alloy steel is probably a good idea. Is normalizing worth the additional decarb for my situation? And are we sure that outer layer is decarb?

Once i get some things settled, i will take you up your offer to test and talk about HTing.
 
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The way I check for grain size is to break a file (a good high carbon steel file), and break my test steel. Lay them side by side to compare. The file will be good grain, so you can compare nicely side by side.
 
I have just been cutting out, rough grinding, heat treating, and then finish grinding. No normalizing at all. I cannot afford a surface grinder right now, but that and a mill (for one piece liners, bolsters, catch bits, etc) are tied for next piece of equipment i get when i can. I am on my very last bar of 1095 and then will be using some other steel. I am thinking precision ground O1.

I am not overly concerned about perfecting 1095 heat treat, as i plan on changing steels. But i do want some kind of frame of reference and start underatanding what a proper heat treat looks like.

Sounds like using precision ground steel might help with factory mill scale. I think a low alloy steel like O1 needs a short soak time.

I guess what i need to know now is what is my best strategy until i get a surface grinder? Using precision ground and a low alloy steel is probably a good idea. Is normalizing worth the additional decarb for my situation? And are we sure that outer layer is decarb?

Once i get some things settled, i will take you up your offer to test and talk about HTing.


Precision ground is a very smart investment without having either of the above tools Randy. O1 is probably the most common knife appropriate steel available in this config, although you can get lots of stainless from various sources that been accurately ground. O-1 you can often find on ebay from PreMar or Starret or similar however that's been precision ground as surplus for cheap. I think most pocket knife makers that don't have a surface grinder or lapping machine, use, and would highly recommend it.

It should be decarb free, reasonably straight, flat and parallel, much more so than any mill stock.

O1 is a good choice also, as it has reasonably simple basic HT, but plenty of room for really exceptional performance with practiced, and specialized HT specific to the stock you use and your desired results. However, with all steels, there's potential for source-to-source, or even batch to batch variation, where you can't simply "follow a recipe" each time, and expect consistent results. There's a reason why many of us that are serious about trying to get the best performance from our work, focus on specific steels, and even try to buy a large quantity when we find a source we're happy with, so that you can dial in the absolute optimal recipe for that specific batch.

Industry standard HT regimes are a good starting point, but remember, they're almost never developed for our uses, and rarely optimal for knives.
 
Javan, I'm reading your post carefully. I am close to the same place as Randy on my folders. I'm using O1 so thank you for your comments.
 
I also know that Ed Fowler is not a favorite on this forum but I worked with him and he exemplifies your comments about settling on one steel, getting a large batch of it, working with that steel only until you know it inside and out. He achieves (and he showed me I could achieve) amazing results with 52100. I'm doing the O1 at the moment but will probably move to one of the stainless shortly. I like steel from Alpha.
 
I also know that Ed Fowler is not a favorite on this forum but I worked with him and he exemplifies your comments about settling on one steel, getting a large batch of it, working with that steel only until you know it inside and out. He achieves (and he showed me I could achieve) amazing results with 52100. I'm doing the O1 at the moment but will probably move to one of the stainless shortly. I like steel from Alpha.


I'll leave big Ed out of it, and simply say that 52100 is a great example of a steel, that can vary so wildly by HT, that it should never be touched by a novice, or hell, anybody that isn't really willing to go down the damn rabbit hole of HT. It can, be absolutely amazing, but more likely, unless you've spent a large amount of time tweaking your HT; it can absolutely suck. It seems surprisingly simple to many on paper, but evidence shows that it clearly isn't.

I'm personally, not remotely, an HT-expert, guru, or arm-chair metallurgist that many aspire to be. I've just picked a couple of steels that "tick the right boxes" for my expectations of use and advantageous characteristics, and try to get the best results I can. I'm adventuring a bit into some stainless super steels finally (and I'll pick ONE, and stick with it), but in the past, it's been the old, clean, W2 stock (which I'm running out of quickly Don), or 1084/1095 and 15n20 for damascus. The recent good 1075 has been appealing also, and may end up taking the slot for carbon damascus, although if I had the option, I'd only be using 1 carbon steel, for mono-and damascus. Unfortunately, the scarcity of that old W2 has made that a non-starter, but believe me I'm inclined to just get a few tons of Hitachi White shipped to me, and keep it simple.


Regardless, I've been tempted by O-1 myself, I've seen incredible results from it, like 52100. It unfortunately just makes using it for damascus, with the methods I've come accustomed , much more time consuming.
 
I'll leave big Ed out of it, and simply say that 52100 is a great example of a steel, that can vary so wildly by HT, that it should never be touched by a novice, or hell, anybody that isn't really willing to go down the damn rabbit hole of HT. It can, be absolutely amazing, but more likely, unless you've spent a large amount of time tweaking your HT; it can absolutely suck. It seems surprisingly simple to many on paper, but evidence shows that it clearly isn't.

I'm personally, not remotely, an HT-expert, guru, or arm-chair metallurgist that many aspire to be. I've just picked a couple of steels that "tick the right boxes" for my expectations of use and advantageous characteristics, and try to get the best results I can. I'm adventuring a bit into some stainless super steels finally (and I'll pick ONE, and stick with it), but in the past, it's been the old, clean, W2 stock (which I'm running out of quickly Don), or 1084/1095 and 15n20 for damascus. The recent good 1075 has been appealing also, and may end up taking the slot for carbon damascus, although if I had the option, I'd only be using 1 carbon steel, for mono-and damascus. Unfortunately, the scarcity of that old W2 has made that a non-starter, but believe me I'm inclined to just get a few tons of Hitachi White shipped to me, and keep it simple.


Regardless, I've been tempted by O-1 myself, I've seen incredible results from it, like 52100. It unfortunately just makes using it for damascus, with the methods I've come accustomed , much more time consuming.

Kind of off topic but have you tried aldo's W2?
 
Kind of off topic but have you tried aldo's W2?


Sure, it's good stuff, but not the same IMO. Slightly lower carbon, but more importantly the sulpher content, which I'm sure is simply because of the difference in modern recycled base steel vs the old, which was either virgin base elements, or they were willing to refine it enough to remove impurities. It's splitting hairs to most people, and as I've said on this thread, I'm not a metallurgical expert, but IMO, the old stuff is the real deal, and the best simple carbon cutlery steel available from the western world. It's very similar to Hitachi White, and they both excel at the same things, i.e extreme fine (acute) edge stability. It's old-school carbon steel at it's best. Nothing else really out there like it, although good clean 1095, or Aldo's stuff is a good option when there isn't another, and I imagine there was a point where refinement vs cost became untenable for that batch of his W2. I don't consider them interchangeable personally, Hitachi White being the closest analogue to me, but what do I know? It does however, meet the requirements of throwing a smoking hot hamon, and I think, when people were really asking for "new" W2, that's what they were most concerned with. Course, that 1075 from a couple years ago will do the same, and in many ways, I like it better. The only problem that 1075 has (it's excellent), is that missing 20 off the designation (name) makes it sound like it's not as good LOL. Oh yeah, and only being available in thick stock.

Course, who's to say what the next batches will be like? People never talk about it, but the difference between each batch of 1084 has been pretty big, not so much in spec, but how it performs or acts in certain circumstances. That's the nature of having custom niche market steel made these days though. As the spec tightens, the prices/minimums get exponentially larger.

That's why I said, find something you like, and buy enough of that batch, to last you a lifetime. That's the ONLY way you can expect to get the last percent of performance, and maintain a modicum of consistency. However, in fairness, it's arguable how much, in the grand scheme, it really matters right? It's just a question of how obsessive you are.
 
Sure, it's good stuff, but not the same IMO. Slightly lower carbon, but more importantly the sulpher content, which I'm sure is simply because of the difference in modern recycled base steel vs the old, which was either virgin base elements, or they were willing to refine it enough to remove impurities. It's splitting hairs to most people, and as I've said on this thread, I'm not a metallurgical expert, but IMO, the old stuff is the real deal, and the best simple carbon cutlery steel available from the western world. It's very similar to Hitachi White, and they both excel at the same things, i.e extreme fine (acute) edge stability. It's old-school carbon steel at it's best. Nothing else really out there like it, although good clean 1095, or Aldo's stuff is a good option when there isn't another, and I imagine there was a point where refinement vs cost became untenable for that batch of his W2. I don't consider them interchangeable personally, Hitachi White being the closest analogue to me, but what do I know? It does however, meet the requirements of throwing a smoking hot hamon, and I think, when people were really asking for "new" W2, that's what they were most concerned with. Course, that 1075 from a couple years ago will do the same, and in many ways, I like it better. The only problem that 1075 has (it's excellent), is that missing 20 off the designation (name) makes it sound like it's not as good LOL. Oh yeah, and only being available in thick stock.

Course, who's to say what the next batches will be like? People never talk about it, but the difference between each batch of 1084 has been pretty big, not so much in spec, but how it performs or acts in certain circumstances. That's the nature of having custom niche market steel made these days though. As the spec tightens, the prices/minimums get exponentially larger.

That's why I said, find something you like, and buy enough of that batch, to last you a lifetime. That's the ONLY way you can expect to get the last percent of performance, and maintain a modicum of consistency. However, in fairness, it's arguable how much, in the grand scheme, it really matters right? It's just a question of how obsessive you are.

Ok I just had to ask because I really value your opinion and Im fairly new to knifemaking and have never tried the old W2 but I have been having some pretty good luck with Aldo's W2.

Thanks for answering!
 
Ok I just had to ask because I really value your opinion and Im fairly new to knifemaking and have never tried the old W2 but I have been having some pretty good luck with Aldo's W2.

Thanks for answering!

Thanks, although, there are definitely much better people than me to ask when it comes to metallurgy and steel selection. I just know what I like, and works for me, based on that. If you like Aldo's W2, it's a good choice, and I'd keep your eyes peeled for some of the old stuff, to save for special pieces, and you'd definitely like Hitachi white, but it's pricey and harder to get ahold of than Aldo's W2, but seems to be getting easier to obtain here.
 
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