Interesting Article on Micro-Bevels and Moras.... "Is your Mora too sharp?"

Way too much ado about nothing. If you aren't doing woodcarving, why would you choose a scandi grind? For most everything else, it stinks. I carried one daily for about a year, so I know where it excels. If you put anything but the slightest of secondary bevels on the knife, it doesn't work well for woodcutting either.

If you buy a scandi, use it zero ground for what it excels at, woodworking. If you aren't doing anything with wood, almost anything else is better. As far as speed of sharpening, yes, you can touch up the secondary a couple times, but then you have to take the whole bevel back down so that the knife can work like it is supposed to.

A scandi sharpened with a secondary bevel of any size cuts like a sharpened prybar on most materials, but it is quite strong at the edge and tip. Much like Frosts replied, it becomes simply a utility tool, rather than a blade that excels at anything.
 
My imagination or do some folks have wayyy too much time on their hands... ?

I have two Mora's , both of which have a small secondary bevel , both of which cut and slice anything I use them to cut and slice.

The smaller one was stolen by my girl and now see's daily kitchen duty. It cuts and cuts , veggies ,fruit , cheese , bread , meat, packages and boxes and papers. I touch it up once every other week and its good to go.

I'm not sure what that article is implying. Microbevels ? Degrees ? Come on guys are you serious ?

Sharpen it and move on with your life.

Anycal , no offense intended but this
A scandi sharpened with a secondary bevel of any size cuts like a sharpened prybar on most materials, but it is quite strong at the edge and tip. Much like Frosts replied, it becomes simply a utility tool, rather than a blade that excels at anything.
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makes zero sense. As stated above both of my Mora's employ a small/slight secondary bevel and they both cut every material I have needed to cut with them like lasers - I've had them both for 6-7 years now.

My two cents.

Tostig
 
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Tostig, no offense taken. The knives you mention have an acute bevel, so obviously they will cut fairly well. However, they would cut even better if they didn't have a huge bevel adding friction to the cut, and they could be stronger at the same time, even with the improved cutting efficiency. On some materials, it doesn't matter. On others, it does.

I guess a better way to say it would have been: The large bevel of a scandi grind, which is its strong point, is also a 'feature' that handicaps it to an extent in other types of cutting due to friction against the material being cut. Using a scandi with a significant microbevel takes away its strength- the large, stable, bevel, and retains its most significant weakness- the excessive amount of friction against the material being cut.

IMO, a person looking for an all around cutter, if searching for the best performance, could gain a stronger edge and better cutting efficiency by choosing another grind, rather than handicapping the strengths of a niche tool.

That is not to say the the knives can't be used, just that they won't work as well. My scandi always had a particularly difficult time with cardboard, but excelled when shaving wood. My EDC folder whispers through cardboard, but isn't nearly as controllable when shaving wood. A large microbevel on a scandi creates a knife that has trouble on cardboard AND has difficulty being controllable on wood.

ETA- When I say controllable, excessive, stronger, better, I mean these terms as relative, rather than absolute. Just as a thin hollow grind can outperform a thin flat grind on some materials, and a thin flat grind can outperform a sabre grind on some materials, there is general hierarchy in the grinds that can be observed, though there will always be some extremes that fall outside of that. A thick edged flat ground knife may cut with considerably more friction than a thin scandi, but it still does not disprove the general idea.
 
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Tostig said:
My imagination or do some folks have wayyy too much time on their hands... ?

As stated above both of my Mora's employ a small/slight secondary bevel and they both cut every material I have needed to cut with them like lasers - I've had them both for 6-7 years now.

Tostig
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It's your imagination. Stone hand axes and bronze razors cut everything their users needed to be cut, but that doesn't mean there wasn't room for improvement. It's nothing to degrade anyone over. It's not like all knives have top cutting efficiency as their primary goal. If they did, most knives would look a lot different.
 
Any Cal. said:
When I say controllable, excessive, stronger, better, I mean these terms as relative, rather than absolute. Just as a thin hollow grind can outperform a thin flat grind on some materials, and a thin flat grind can outperform a sabre grind on some materials, there is general hierarchy in the grinds that can be observed, though there will always be some extremes that fall outside of that. A thick edged flat ground knife may cut with considerably more friction than a thin scandi, but it still does not disprove the general idea.
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Nicely stated! I believe there really is a 'best grind' for different materials, and no one grind is best for all of them. Same holds true for types of edges; i.e. polished or toothy.


Stitchawl
 
Tostig, no offense taken. The knives you mention have an acute bevel, so obviously they will cut fairly well. However, they would cut even better if they didn't have a huge bevel adding friction to the cut, and they could be stronger at the same time, even with the improved cutting efficiency. On some materials, it doesn't matter. On others, it does.
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After reading the article and pondering I am willing to try one of my Mora's without the second bevel and see how it works. I cannot imagine though slicing better if the second bevel is thinner and at a finer angle. Maybe it's my mind that cant wrap this into something digestable.
Bear in thought that all of my knives I sharpen by hand with stones. No fancy angle thingys.

Me2 , I wasnt trying to degrade anyone. Just throwing out my opinion , I cannot see a point in spending hours sharpening a knife to see if it whittles hair better than the one I sharpened yesterday. In my opinion sharpening beyond usability ( while ceratinly in anyones right to do so ! ) is wasting steel- That said , I will fight to death your right to sharpen a knife as long , as often as you wish. :D



:)

Tostig
 
I took your reply to mean that the author should be doing something more productive with his time. If you meant it in a joking way or meant something different, well this is typed communication and tone is hard to convey. At any rate, its nothing to get excited about one way or the other.

For me, and for nohz (the originator of the hair whittling thread on BF), whittling hair is not the goal, but the check of consistency. My knives see uses that require that level of sharpness, so that is my check of my desired level of usability. It also lets me know I didn't goof something up in the process.

Easy (not fast) hand sharpening is one of the benefits of the scandi grind. I like them, use them, and make them on occasion. But they don't cut as well as a full flat grind, 2 to 3 degrees per side, with a 10 - 12 deg./side edge bevel. 10 to 12 deg/side is the edge bevel range of the scandi's I've made and read about.

Where the Mora and Frosts knives really shine is simplicity, price, and cutting ability when compared against generic factory knives. Easily adding or subtracting a microbevel adds to the verstility. Since they are left with quite a bit of metal in the blade, they are also more tolerable to accidental or intentional ham handedness that outdoor knives get subjected to from time to time.

They cut as good or better than many factory knives with 20-25 deg/side edges, with thickness behind the edge of 1/32" or more. My friend has a kitchen knife with an edge bevel approaching 30 deg/side. Even frozen food doesn't need that. A 10 deg/side scandi, w/ or w/o a 1/64" wide microbevel will out cut that kitchen knife all day.

That was a rambling way of saying the following:
sometimes I'm too sensitive when reading and replying to posts
scandi's have their strong points-but raw cutting ability isn't one of them
they can seem like straight razors if you're used to a cold chisel geometry
microbevels are a way to increase their versatility at the expense of
cutting ability
different users have different levels of usability w/r to sharpness
 
Tostig said:
I cannot imagine though slicing better if the second bevel is thinner and at a finer angle. Maybe it's my mind that cant wrap this into something digestable.

Tostig
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It won't. It would slice better if you got rid of all the extra bevel. :D The extra bevel is amazing when working with wood, along the grain. On any other thick material, it requires you to add additional pressure to make the cut.

That is why I was saying, for UTILITY tasks, that it was silly to add a microbevel. It is along the same lines as adding a scandi grind to a Military so it is better for woodworking. It may perform better, but there are still better tools for the job.

Of course, If you just like Moras because they are strong, light, and cheap, throw a micro on it and go. :)
 
I think the biggest problem is most take a microbevel WAY to far, if you can see it then its WAY to big.

Most all the microbevels I have done can usually only be seen at 100x or more.

When it comes to the generic scandi (mora) the steel is not hardened enough to resist deformations from hard contact. A lam mora with 60+ Rc core, no problem, because the steel has enough stability due to its higher hardness a microbevel is not needed to keep it from deforming.

Unless the steel is of higher hardness I always use a micro, a microbevel done correctly will go nearly un-noticed on a scandi blade. Also if you strop on leather after you create a micro convex and it pretty much goes back to working like a straight scandi.
 
knifenut1013 said:
When it comes to the generic scandi (mora) the steel is not hardened enough to resist deformations from hard contact. A lam mora with 60+ Rc core, no problem, because the steel has enough stability due to its higher hardness a microbevel is not needed to keep it from deforming.
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That's why the ones I've made are HRc 64 or higher. I want to try to push one to 5 deg/side, but haven't had time yet.
 
Some of this is confusing me. I have a mora #2 and it was very sharp from factory. When it finally dulled I removed the micro bevel. So easy to sharpen as I just lay it on the stones. If the main angle is 20-22 a side that's pretty good. Some of my kitchen knives are more like 15 or less. I'd never go more than 20 really for any knife. So why would I go more obtuse with my mora. It's good steel hardened to around 60. My little opinel is at 20 and it's edge lasts forever and it's a softer steel. So in my mind at 60 the moras around 20 main bevel is actually more obtuse than needs be even without the secondary
 
Any Cal. said:
Way too much ado about nothing. If you aren't doing woodcarving, why would you choose a scandi grind? For most everything else, it stinks. I carried one daily for about a year, so I know where it excels. If you put anything but the slightest of secondary bevels on the knife, it doesn't work well for woodcutting either.

If you buy a scandi, use it zero ground for what it excels at, woodworking. If you aren't doing anything with wood, almost anything else is better. As far as speed of sharpening, yes, you can touch up the secondary a couple times, but then you have to take the whole bevel back down so that the knife can work like it is supposed to.

A scandi sharpened with a secondary bevel of any size cuts like a sharpened prybar on most materials, but it is quite strong at the edge and tip. Much like Frosts replied, it becomes simply a utility tool, rather than a blade that excels at anything.
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The bushcraft thing is a fad and it will pass like most fads do, it's a hot thing now, something new to play with, new buzz word... OOOOOHHHHH AHHHHHH OHHHHHH, but once people realise they can carry a few plastic spoons in their pack.......... Like when in the Military, you know the real deal, C-Rats and MRE's come with spoons......

Scandi Grinds really aren't good for much of anything other than bushcraft.

Nothing more than what we used to do with simple slip joints back when we were young.

While the bushcraft people are carving their spoons..... ROFL

I will have eaten my food, made my shelter and taken a nap before they are done...... Using a plastic spoon and simple paring knife from Wally World.....

IMO----- Waste of time and energy for nothing when out in the field for real..... When time and energy really matter for REAL.....
 
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Doesn't this all come down to what the factory bevel is on the Mora? I own 3 of the carbon "Classic" series in different sizes. Based on where the edge starts to catch on smooth leather I'd say the factory inclusive is 20 degrees or less (mine didn't come with a factory microbevel, but for 10 bucks what do you expect). Putting a microbevel (even a large one) that brings the edge up to 30 degrees isn't (hasn't) going to turn a Mora into a sharpened prybar. Speaking to the amount of friction generated by the backbevel, why would that be any greater than a flat grind 20 degree edge with a 30 degree primary bevel, or for that matter, greater than a convex edge (all of my Moras came with a bevel that is more than a little convex anyway)?

I generally increase the edge bevel to 30 degrees and convex this into the main bevel (if I bought a Clipper or one of their other more "expensive" knives it presumably would have had the 30 degree bevel out of the box) - they still cut better than most of my other grinds when sharpened to the same grit value - on a variety of materials. No disrespect, but the article is easy to understand, the resulting chat about it - not so much.
 
I've had 8 different Moras; stainless, carbon, carbon Triflex, and laminated. At 20 degree inclusive (10 degree bevel) I've found the stainless to be less prone to chipping and rolling than the carbon and laminate blades. My Bushcraft Triflex has a 25 degree inclusive (12.5 degree bevel) and its edge will take a lot of abuse. I use a micro bevel @ 35 degrees inclusive on all except 3 of my Moras. I find that my micro bevels are just as sharp as the blades without the micro bevels so the title of the article is a little misleading.
I think the scandi grind is a good 'Jack of all trades grind'.
 
Any Cal. said:
... Of course, If you just like Moras because they are strong, light, and cheap, throw a micro on it and go. :)
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Now we're talking. This is all it is really about in the "general" world. Woodcarving, which sadly I don't do, is something others have commented on...I cannot.
 
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