Interesting response

george tichbourne

george tichbourne

Joined
Apr 19, 1999
Messages
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I was looking at the current issue of Knives Illustrated and noticed a letter to the editor from a knife collector who was so upset by Knives' recent article on Mid Tech that he is no longer collecting knives and cancelling any outstanding orders. Interesting response..

Perhaps we should return to basics like the 200 or so licensed Japanese sword makers who smelt their own iron and forge it into their allowed two swords (maximum) per month. This would definitely ensure that the purists are happy but I expect that the price and availability of custom knives would be adversely affected.

Just kidding of course but I wonder how much that article has affected the market.

For myself I intend to continue purchasing steel,screws, pivots and heat treating services from individuals who have the technology to do the best job possible instead of trying to make do with the equipment available to me and possibly produce a lower quality product than those professionals do.
 
I am with you all the way on this George. There is pleanty of room for all the types of production we are seeing.
 
Ahhh.....Back to this old pair of boots.....

It never ceases to amaze me how this subject can split a room. Wheather any of us like it or not, here is the fact; technology is here, and not only to stay, but to advance at a rate none of us can keep up with single handedly ( or afford). To me, if you blend the best of both worlds you get a better product. Let me expand...My knives are better for the money than if I didn't have my wire EDM. It allows me repeatable precision and freedom to do things most makers can't do without out-sourcing services. It allows for precision with more speed. I can and have made all sorts of folders without it, but it takes twice the time to do it, especially lockbacks. I can and have (recently) file fitted guards with no gaps, but it took much more time ( most smiths I know either use a mill or file jigs to fit guards anyway. I have found all of these methods relatively easy, but my EDM is faster.)

I am not knocking thoses makers who use only hand tools. I like their dedication to their methods. I enjoy seeing their work and like to diversity it gives our industry. I read an interview article in Double Gun Journal a couple of years ago (one of the finest special interest publications going). It was with Ivo Fabbri. If you are not familiar with Fabbri shotguns, they are THE standard EVERY shotgun can be measured against. They have been in business since 1965, and have made fewer than 1500 guns. Current prices start at $60,000.00 without engraving! They use CNC technology andpowerfull solid modeling software in manufacturing their guns. They couple this with old world traditional craftsmanship. They have a statement about this on their web site you may find interesting. www.fabbri.com . H&H, Purdy, Berreta, Churchill, Galazan, Perazi (they were sent to success with a Fabbri design)....none are better than Fabbri in terms of final product.

And that is what matters to me, The final product. I am the only person who does anything on my knives. Every knife is done in house with my own tools and hands. I profile folder parts on my EDM, cut guard slots, inlay templates and inlays (metal) on the EDM. I am playing with solid mosaic damascus blocks by cutting the two components on the EDM. I still forge, grind, drill, fit parts and obviously finish by hand.

To collectors, I hope the advent of technology into handmade knives is seen as a benefit. More options are open to you in types of knives to collect with so much diversity. There are many makers who don't use modern technology in their work, so the indusrt has certainly not lost anything, but gained a lot. I think the knife industry is more exciting with it than without.
 
I read the letter and found it not totally coherent. That could be due to editing, or due to emotion. I'll guess that guy was specifically pissed at someone. I know from my own experience, that some knifemakers don't always fully represent their product. There is one frequent visitor to these forums, who I beleived made his knives, but later found that they are shop made (i.e. a team makes them.) That's fine with me, but be up front about it; not all makers are. For example, if you go to the Ruena website or read their catalog, you know what you're getting. Some knifemakers lie by omission. Buying a knife that you believe is made by the maker and and unique, only later to find out that it was assembled by the maker and his elves plus one of several, can be a hard burn to get over.

If you buy from a middleman, it's even harder to find out the truth. I've come across many knife purveyors who know less about their product than can be gotten from the maker's website. I've also had some purposefully misrepresent their product.
 
I have not read this letter. I don't get KI, but will check it out at the news stand.

This seems to have been a knee jerk reaction. Over the last year or so I have come to the belief that an artisans skill comes not from the tools they use, but from their imaginations and vision. There was a time not long ago that I was one of those that fervently belived that a custom knife had to be completely made by hand. Over the last while I have come to realize that this was in error.
 
I read this over the weekend.

Here is my take on why the author of the letter is pissed:

1. He can't get the same knife for the money he used to in the old days. He doesn't want to see knifemakers getting rich.:rolleyes: (Guess he likes poor knifemakers that can barely afford to keep selling him knives). So, this guy doesn't like the free market.

2. Knifemakers don't want to "collaborate" on true custom knives.

I can't sympathize with Point 1. A lot of people seem to think Architect's are rolling in dough - nothing could be further from the truth. Sure, some do well, but compared to other professionals, licensed architects are pretty much at the bottom of the economic barrel, nationwide. I don't see why knifemakers should be consigned to a life of noble near-poverty.

I am interested in hearing others comment on Point 2 - collaboration. My sense is that he has a fair point there. I don't know if it is economics or machinery programming or a little of both, but getting a collaborative design achieved with a knifemaker these days is harder than pulling teeth.
 
Yup, it smacked of 'sour grapes' to me, too.

Bailey, you just entered the top ten most relevant posts I've ever read on this subject. No, make that top five with the above. ;) Thanks for the crystal clarity and insight.

Coop
 
This weekend I went down to DC and spent hours checking out the treasures in the National Gallery.

Some of the most striking works of artistry and craftsmanship that I saw there were the various pieces of furniture on display. Most were atrributed to a certain maker, but nowhere did I see any mention of who made the hinges, who mixed up the stain, etc... The owners and curators never even thought to mention anyone other than the craftsman whose vision, creativity, design, and hard work brought the piece from its initial inspiration to its completion.
 
Would someone who has the magazine mind reproducing the letter here for those of us that don't/can't get KI? This is an interesting thread, but lacking context for those who don't have access to the mag.

I'm particularly interested in what he had to say about collaborations on custom knives.

Thanks,

Roger
 
Originally posted by george tichbourne
Perhaps we should return to basics like the 200 or so licensed Japanese sword makers who smelt their own iron and forge it into their allowed two swords (maximum) per month. This would definitely ensure that the purists are happy but I expect that the price and availability of custom knives would be adversely affected.
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Click to expand...

George, there might be a misunderstanding. Japanese sword smiths are LEGALLY restricted to there production method including only to make two swords a month. This is not just a purist thing.
There are young, talented japanese smiths with their own great ideas... but they have to use this talent and their ideas under these legal circumstances.

BTW, would love to see a nice bowie or hunter made from own smelted iron.... if this is done correctly I bet this would be fantastic looking knife!
 
My apologies to the editors of Knives Illustrated if this is inappropriate. This is a worthy topic and deserves discussion. I suggest EVERYONE to subscribe to this great magazine. I do.

The comments are in the attached picture...

I think you will find a number of innacuracies with this one man's opinion. But...he's entitled to them.

Coop
 
What I was wondering is how many other people out there now will shy away from handmade knives believing them to be somehow "tainted" by the use of outside source materials or in the worst case made up entirely from off the shelf components.

I can understand how makers, pressed to deliver lower priced product or higher volumes than they can normally handle, can decide to take the mid tech route. Success is a Catch 22 situation, it breeds higher and higher demands on the individual which must be met or the maker can slip off the wave of popularity.

It doesn't make a lot of difference for part time makers but for full timers who depend on knives to put groceries on the table it is a tough decision.
 
I don't see a conflict between custom and Mid-Tech. Why can't a maker do both? I suppose if the Mid-Tech took off so well that the maker had no time to make customs that this couldcreate a problem, but I don't see why having a Mid-Tech line should really have any effect on the value of a makers custom knives. They are seperate entities. The fact that there are Mid-Tech Brend knives in no way reduces the value of custom Brends. The same is true for Rob's knives.

I have no trouble finding makers that are willing to work with me to come up with the knife I want. I really can't figure out why the person that wrote this letter has decided to cancel most of his orders for knives. His reasoning eludes me. He seems to think that because some makers are outsourcing work that he can no longer trust that all makers aren't doing this. Has he asked the makers he has orders with if they do this? If they tell him no, does he not believe them? He seems to have a bit of the Chicken Little complex.
 
The important thing for a maker is to be truthful about the construction of their knives. Very few people care if your screws are off-the-shelf. But some may care if your blades are cut outside your shop at a rate of 25 a pattern. For example, no one would expect you to make your own epoxy for a modern knife; but for a traditional Native American flint knife, glue hand made from deer antler is a selling point and adds significant value to a knife. Such as the difference between factory tanned leather and hand brain-tanned leather.

When it comes to "mid-tech" where does it stop being a knife made by a maker and become a kit assembled by a craftsman? At gun shows, I've seen the Darrel Ralph kits sold as assembled kit knives and as custom knives (i.e. the handle material is custom)with no mention of the fact its genesis is as a kit. The prices ranged from $75 to $200.
 
I personally believe that honest communication is the key to a satisfactory relationship between a maker and a collector.

Use whatever tools and techniques are most efficient but be honest about them when we talk.

If you have blades laser cut and professionally heat treated by Paul Bos that is fine. But don't tell me that it is a sole authorship handmade knife and try to charge me accordingly.
 
Hi fellas,
We went through this in the Guild and it caused a big stink and a lot of hard feelings and pushed a lot of people away. Like Bailey said, technology is here to stay, and the extent to which a maker uses it is up to him. The guy who has a CNC mill in his shop had to fork out the cash for it,learn how to run it, and come up with his designs.
As long as he is up front about it and the customer likes what he is getting, leave him alone.
We the makers just have to be true to ourselves and our customers.
Be honorable. Stand behind your work. Have fun doing what you love.
Its that simple.
JP
 
When it comes to a custom knife being a collaboration between a maker and the person ordering the knife, it doesn't matter if the knife is totally handmade or not.

As I see it, the person that wrote the letter to KI was saying that he could no longer trust that the makers he was working with were being honest with him about how his knives were being made. The problem seems to be a lack of trust. If he truely believes that makers are more interested in making a buck than in being honest about how they make their knives then maybe it is best that he no longer be involved in this industry.

There probably are some makers out there that are deceiving their customers about how their knives are made. From my experience these makers are few and far between. I am not going to give up on the custom knife community because I may run into one of these makers at some point. I can't live in that paranoid a way.

One thing that is very good about knife forums is that you have a tremendous resource for researching the knives and the makers you are interested in. From being part of a community like this you get to learn a great deal about those that have decided to put their hat into the ring and become knifemakers. Personally, I have not found a group of more honest, moral and ethical people. It is not perfect, but I will not throw out the baby with the bath water.

The guy that wrote that letter obviously has a hard time trusting people. If you can read an article about Mid-Tech knives and immediately start to distrust knifemakers so much that you would cancel most of your orders, you probably shouyldn't get involved in deals where trust is so big a part of everything that is involved.
 
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