Interesting response

To quote Mr. Montgomery "There probably are some makers out there that are deceiving their customers about how their knives are made. From my experience these makers are few and far between. "

I disagree, it may not be common, but it certainly is not "few and far between." I know there is one "very respected" knifemaker on this forum, one of the top 5, who is less than up front with information. There is a second one, one of the top 20, that is the same way. Their transgression isn't outright lying, but it's the "sin of omission." In addition, at the booth of a very famous deceased knifemaker at a show they also were less than forthcoming about the status of the blades they were selling, none of which were made by the deceased maker In these instances the truth was told, but certainly not volunteered.

When it comes to middlemen, at every show I've ever been to, there is at least one, usually about 3, middlemen misrepresenting their product in one way or another.
 
Brownshoe,
Do you put me in either of those catagories? If you do, I'll respond.
If you can bring up Rob's name associated with this thread, you should be able to mention all the names you speak of.
 
Originally posted by brownshoe
To quote Mr. Montgomery "There probably are some makers out there that are deceiving their customers about how their knives are made. From my experience these makers are few and far between. "

I disagree, it may not be common, but it certainly is not "few and far between." I know there is one "very respected" knifemaker on this forum, one of the top 5, who is less than up front with information. There is a second one, one of the top 20, that is the same way. Their transgression isn't outright lying, but it's the "sin of omission." In addition, at the booth of a very famous deceased knifemaker at a show they also were less than forthcoming about the status of the blades they were selling, none of which were made by the deceased maker In these instances the truth was told, but certainly not volunteered.

When it comes to middlemen, at every show I've ever been to, there is at least one, usually about 3, middlemen misrepresenting their product in one way or another.
Click to expand...

Brownshoe, this kind of inuendo really bugs me. If you want to make a point like this, name names. Statements like the ones you made above leave people wondering which makers are being discussed and casts suspicion on all makers because no one knows for sure who you are talking about.

You bring this up in thread after thread, so obviously you have a big problem with what you consider to be unscrupulous makers. Show the courage of your conviction and let us know who it is that you are referring to. That way they can defend themselves if they feel like doing so.

Rob's Mid-Tech knives are clearly marked as such, so I can only come to the conclusion that it would take very little effort to learn that these are not his custom knives. Even if you don't know what a Mid-Tech knife is, if you see that marking on a blade, just ask the person behind the table what it means.
 
OK, I'll come right out and say it. "Put up or shut up".
If you have factual information that you can substantiate, let's hear it. If makers are lying about how their knives are made, let's hear it. Name names. C'mon.

This stuff has gotten way out of hand. Gossip, criticism and inuendo are not the way to the truth.
 
Mr. Carson, I don't know your work and have never been to a show you attend. I have not mentioned "Rob's" name in any way associated with this thread. The only names I've named are Ruena as a good example, and Darrel Ralph in association with his kits. I certainly don't hold Mr. Ralph responsible for the end use of kits which are sold by many people, both as kits and in assembled form.

Sure Mr. Montgomery, you want me to "name names", then this thread would get messy with the need for proof, counter-arguments, etc. My opinion was formed from a variety of objective evidence, most of which is known to me through my personal experience (e.g. shows, catalogs, interviews in magazines, etc.) thus if you don't believe my opinion, you probably wouldn't accept my evidence. I make mistakes and do things I'm not proud of, and I don't want it aired on the internet. If it's on the internet and someone changes their behavior, they can't erase the thread. Believe me or not, that's your privilege.

There are people who are known as "custom" makers who supposedly create all of their own blades. This is reflected in their marketing literature, sometimes in articles, and by statements made by middlemen at shows. In reality most of their product is made by multiple workers in a shop. The only "custom" thing about some of their work are choices of handle material, but most their knives are sold "off the rack." Anyone who knows the knife business, knows these people or you're just not paying attention.

Some knifemakers have cleaned up their act, some are deliberately vague. I like the guy who's up front. I've bought hand made knives from a small shop, I've bought knives made and designed by a father and son team and I've bought knives where everything except the screws was done by the maker. Just tell me the truth and give me a fair price for a good looking usable blade.
 
Brownshoe,
When you mentioned a "recently deceased maker" there is no doubt you meant Rob. Did you mention his name? Yea, you did. Don't try to weasel out of it like you're doing with the makers names.
If you have proof, stand by your convictions. If not, shut the hell up.
:grumpy:
 
Mr. Montgomery was my Grandfather; please address me as Keith.

Darrel doesn't make knives from his kits. He doesn't make knives that look like his kits. So I can see no problem with him making kits. In fact, these kits are the way that many people get started making knives so I think they are a darn good thing.

It is well known that Ruana knives are handmade by the Hangas family. It is pretty easy to figure out that they are made by a single individual.

There are makers that outsource some of their parts and their heat treating. Any one of them that does that I have talked to have all been up front about this. In some cases I had to ask, but as a smart purchaser, I figure it is my responsibilty to find this out. These are easy questions to ask. Do you outsource any of the parts or work that is done in the making of your knives? Are your knives handmade or is computer design and manufacture incorporated? It is not just the responsibilty of the maker to disclose this information, though I do believe that the maker should state everything up front. If these things are important to you, ask.

Yes, many makers have set models. The thing is, you know that going in. You know that Darrel, Kit, Bob T. and many others have certain models. Most of these makers will also make you a one-off if you want them to. If you don't like choosing from pre determined maodels then find a maker that will make the knife you want in the way you want. There are lots of them out there that will do just that.

All a person looking for a certain kind of custom knife has to do is do his/her homework. Don't be afraid to ask the questions that are important to you. If I want a totally handmade, sole authorship, fully in house made knife, I am going to ask the maker if that is how he/she does it.
 
I have to agree with the others, you really need to name names if you want to make statements like you made. I think your comment: "A very famous deceased knifemaker" was in bad taste. Whether you actually meant to allude to Rob Simonich or not given the recent events everyone on this forum is going to assume you mean him. He is very much on people's minds right now. If you didn't mean to allude to Rob you really should apologize for the statement. If you did your timing was very bad to say the least!


To go back to the original post:

I've been reading everything I can on mid techs and in my opinion they are a good thing. To be able to separate custom knives from "semi-production" knives I feel is a huge benefit to the custom knife maker. Some knifemakers for some time now have been making knives this way for many reasons, now they have a label or category to place them in. Mid tech's are a great way to get people started in collecting knives. Once in it's only a matter of time before they will want something they can say is truly custom made or truly unique.

I don't think the guy who wrote the letter had really thought this out. Sure someone can buy a big name (ie. a knife with the name Simonich, or Onion, etc. on it) for less money than they otherwise would have had to spend by buying a mid tech but if they have done so much research to know the who's who of knifemaking their interest in
knives is not going to stop there. If anything buying the cheaper mid tech knife could just further heighten their desire for the truly hand made. Additionally making all these mid tech knives takes away from making the customs and thus there are fewer custom knives out there for a given knifemaker.

If it is complete elitism he was looking for than maybe I guess there is a point to his being so upset??? I can't see the overall value of custom knives decreasing due to a new category of knives coming onstream. If anything this has the potential of increasing the value of custom knives.

Sean
 
Get real SM018...there's lots of dead knifemakers. Read my post, and you'd know it's not him. What show has his knives been at in the last week. Maybe I wasn't clear, the dead man's compatriots had a table in his name at a show.
 
Brownshoe, I seem to be missing what it is your anger is directed at. Knives, their making and their collecting is a small world. If people are being dissrespectful and/ or dishonest, out them. They will pay. Kick the liars out make them batter chicken at the Colonels. I don't want you covering up for these lying sacks of p00p any more give us the dirt and we'll burn the still house down.
Thanks
Mike

Now.........

In the letter Mr. Budlowe(sp?) talks about various "Loveless" knives. Does he mean Loveless designs put out by Berreta or Gerber or Lone Wolf? I'm puzzled by the letter. Is there really any confusion between Loveless "designs" and handmade? Does this in any way diminish the market for Loveless knives. There are counterfit items of everything on the market. If it is desirable and saleable someone, somewhere is going to knock it off and sell it to somebody.

Keep cool and check your trademarks

Mike
 
I think Bailey Bradshaw covered most of it. I'm of the opinion that there are all sorts of makers, with all sorts of methods and all sorts of customers with all sorts of tastes, criteria and budgets. Enough to go around to make everyone happy. If you don't want to buy a Mid Tech knife, DON'T BUY ONE. I'm sure there someone who wants one...

Technology and change are facts of life. Also, buyer beware. ANOTHER FACT OF LIFE. When spending hard-earned cash, what the HELL is the problem with doing some homework ?

Also, I have had the most bizarre "feedback" from a "potential customer" - "Why can't you just make a knife that I like ?"

What the ... ??? :confused:

All arguments aside, I think this is an interesting and important thread.

Jason.
 
What we have here is an ideal example of the ramifications that the article can create, no real problem for the makers or knowledgable individuals in the trade but total confusion for the general public.

Those of us directly involved understand the business but uninformed outsiders, who do buy knives, are being put off by insufficient data.

How do we as an industry go about informing and educating the public?

At a large show there are people who just seem to wander along looking at the knives and not stopping to hold conversations with the makers. If they do not stop and talk how will they learn the difference between a Lile with a dot and one without then go away thinking that someone is trying to trick them into buying a fake.

On the other hand I am the first to admit that it is impossible to hold a meaningful conversation with every person who passes my table at a show, especially when there are a half dozen people there at the same time.
 
Back to the original letter. My supposition is this guy has been burned. He's lost trust and thus canceled orders. It appears that he's more of collector than collector/user. Maybe he believes the proliferation of Loveless manufacturered knives dilutes the value of some originals. On these forums, sometimes a popular maker's aftermarket price drops with the release of factory model.

Mr. Tichbourne you're right, on this forum someone posted a few years ago about how they were mislead by the Lile with a dot or w/o. This person was an informed consumer and saw the inherent value in the knife (i.e. good construction and materials). However, he also thought he was getting a bargain at the price, seeing how lots of people know Lile is the designer of the Rambo knife. So this guy knew just enough to be significantly mislead. After the show he found out about the dot.

If you've ever looked into antique knives or military knives, there are a fair number of counterfits. I find it amazing that people spend the time counterfitting knives and then building the scam to sell them. With this type of activity going on in one area of knife selling, a few custom makers not telling the whole truth pales in comparison.

People need to ask questions, makers and seller need to tell the truth. As I see it, if you buy knives because you love them, and not as investment or for status, you can't ever be too badly burned, becasue hey...you like the knife you bought.
 
I think that a lot of worry here from a collector/customer's viewpoint is that if you go to maker X's shop and see that the have lasers and EDM and a CNC mill and all that, there is a worry that what you are getting is a "hyped" factory knife. After all, Maker X may have a collab with a real factory, and the collab knife is made on laser, EDM, and CNC mills.

But that is the "simple" story. In truth, it is the story I once thought was true. Once I started researching how factories use these pieces of equpiment and how individual makers do their thing, there is actually a LOT of differences. Bottom line: knowledge dispells fear. Educating everyone in the knife world about mid-techs and custom knife makign in general will definitely serve to solve problems, real or perceived, as brought up by the gentleman who wrote the original letter.
 
There are always going to be nay sayers Your never gonna make them happy anyway. Technology is here to stay as was mentioned earlier . What I was trying to do when I started the whole Mid-tech thing was to bring honesty and clarity into a vague arena with various shades of grey.I wanted to have some parts cut out because I was getting so behind but didn't want everyone to assume because I had parts cut out on one model that I had them cut out on every model.So after much discussion on this forum as well as others. I had my Boa knife cut out for me. Because I didn't want to muddy the water or polute my true customs I created a new category ,Mid-Tech to clearly and honestly define how it differs from my customs.
Since then it seems to have gained in popularity and I am pleased .However there are dishonest people out there who are going to push the limits. Some will make a production knife and call them Mid-Techs. Some create there own definitions of "what they concider " a Mid-Tech. Which I don't understand .I created the category and clearly defined what it meant .To reinterpret it doesn't make it so.
There are also alot of wonderful and talented knifemakers out there who were honest,befor they started making Mid-Techs .They have always been honest and honorable.They will continue to be honest and honorable weather they are making custom,production ,or Mid-Tech.

Those that were dishonest ,like to streach the the truth,wallow in the shadows ,hide behind a word. They will continue to be bottom feeders . No category or definition will prevent them from there nefarious nature .We know who they are . Just avoid them it is that easy.

As for the guys article in KI , who cares? He is a grown man . There have always been good and bad people .I'm sure he knows the difference and if he is so stupid to assume that because one guy hosed him there for everyone will hose him then we really don't need him anyway. His sence of reasoning, logic and commod sence are completely irrational. He is acting like a spoiled child throwing a temper tantrum hoping to get some attention.
 
Ruana knives made after he retired have different markings than before.
Lile's as was mentioned have the dot.
This information has been plastered all over the magazines and internet, and the people at their tables are very forthcoming about it. Before spending your money, do some homework.

Bob Loveless has had someone else working in his shop for many,many years. Last I knew it was Jim Merrit.

I have no problem with any method or help a maker uses as long as he tells me about it when I ask about the construction.


Be very wary if you are buying a Ford. I think Henry died.
 
How do we as an industry go about informing and educating the public?
Click to expand...

A very good question.

I´m not a huge spender. I own one (1) custom knife and have two more inbound within the next six months. I do own a few production knives and have also owned what I consider was a midtech folder and a midtech fixed blade. I´ve been interested in knives all my life but it became an active hobby two years ago. I don´t think that I´ve ever posted something this longwinded in the Custom Knife Forum. You seem to be more educated than me on every subject discussed here so I mostly read. On this occasion though I think that my opinion might be worth something as a customer and a potential collector.

Some things I´ve noticed that relates to the quoted question above is that some makers use a very unclear marking. I´m not a Loveless fan so I can´t say that I have done any research about knives with or without a "dot". But I have seen a couple of examples where it´s a bit hard to distinguish between a custom and a midtech. Why can´t a maker that goes from custom to semi-custom/midtech stamp the blade "midtech" or "semi-custom" or "semi-handmade" clearly on the blade? That would take care of any misunderstandings. Would it drag down your brand (name) or what? I mentioned earlier that I´ve owned a "mid-tech" folder but it took me about six months of reading on different sites and forums that it wasn´t a custom blade. I was very happy owner because I got hold of this info before I bought it. I later traded it for something else that I fancied. I´m a customer who own knives, not because "I have to" in my working capacity but because it gives me relaxation and satisfaction from a boring day at work or from reading boring books (I´m a student that works a couple of days a week). Why do I have to read "the small print" or go about like a Sherlock Holmes looking for clues on how the knife is made. If I felt cheated I would probably sell all my knives and become interested in something else. Therefore the information on how a knife is made should be on your site or printed prominently in your catalogue if you are a custom maker. Some makers do just that and those are the ones that stays in my Internet Explorer "favourite links" folder.

Another thing that needs to be addressed is that some "purveyors" have very little knowledge in the stuff they sell, or maybe they are omitting some info because they want to sell, sell, sell. I don´t know. I just think that when a maker sends you, as a customer, off to a re-seller/purveyor rather than selling their own product directly to you, that maker should have informed the purveyor what materials are used, how the knife is made and what it´s made to do. I find it very annoying when I get a sales pitch instead of answers to my questions. And I´m not one of the horrible customers that sends hundreds of questions in dozens of e-mails. I´ve decided never to buy a custom blade from a purveyor because of the sloppy sales-work I´ve been subjected to. Sorry but if you want me as a customer you´ll have to work for your 30%. I´m sure there are good purveyors out there because I have friends that by from them. I´m just saying that the ones I´ve been in contact with have not been good at informing me about "their" product.

Maybe I´m too stupid after five years at University with a masters deg. in business administration and a bach. deg. in psychology to understand why it can be so hard to give away what many customers regard as essential information, before a purchase?

Or maybe there are so much secret stuff going on that if it surfaced the whole custom knife market would shake?

I don´t know, but I do know that I still like knives, a lot. I will continue to buy custom and production knives but I will only buy directly from a maker that immediately informs me in some way how he makes his knives, from what material and what it´s for. Additional information like how he/she came up with the model is nice but not essential for the price category I´m buying knives at right now.

/Colinz

(if anyone feel offended by my post, which certainly wasn´t my intention, feel free to e-mail me and I´ll be happy to address your concerns and sign it with my real name)
 
There are no secrets in the business Colinz, perhaps that is what bothers a lot of people who are not in the business. I know that sounds a little glib but unlike any other industry that I have ever worked in or encountered knifemaking is entirely open.

It is considered normal and quite acceptable to walk up to the maker at the table next to you at a major show (with whom you are competing to sell knives) and ask how he accomplished a particular feature on a knife. You will not only get a complete set of instructions but the source of appropriate materials and tools to do the job. Unfortunately the public do not know this and expect that they will not be given the full details if they ask such a question. On the contrary they had better have lots of time to listen if they should have the nerve to ask..knifemakers can be quite longwinded.

I agree that the use of a "Mid Tech" stamp would help considerably as long as the public realize that knives lacking the stamp are probably hand made but to lay any concerns to rest they need only to ask.

Will anybody cheat?...Sure, but in this industry they will be rare indeed.
 
I don´t know how I´m going to be able to address your post, George, without naming names. If we start on that road it will only lead to flames. That´s why I will try to explain how I look at this from my perspective as a customer only. I will avoid even the smallest hint in any special direction.

I find it important to address the information/communication gap; understanding the needs I have as a customer. I don´t think that the problem lies with the customer or the well connected maker who attends shows and maybe even is a member of one guild or another. The one that is aware and listens to his customers needs. He is probably aware of what customers usually ask for and what they expect from a "custom" or "handmade" knife. I suspect that many believe they belong to this category but are in reality ignorant of what his/her customers needs are.

I´m basically talking about two needs, one practical and one emotional. If you as a maker can´t understand which one of these, sometimes both, of these needs your customer wants to satisfy how are you able to give out the correct information and thereby provide the right product? Me for example. I´m more of a emotional guy than a practical one, at least regarding knife purchases. Why? Well I don´t have to use the knives I own, except for my dull training blades. I do like to admire my only (so far) custom knife which is a beatiful fighter. I bought it because I had read about how it should perform if used as intended. After some training in FMA I´m sure it will work very well. I even do some solo drills with it and I´m very pleased with how it handles. It makes a good platform to daydream when I see the news from Afghanistan and Iraq. I also know how this knife was made which makes me appreciate all the time the maker has put into honing his knifemaking skills getting the grind, as he sees it, right. So for me there was a need for a blade that could feed my needs for an aesthetic look and my fantasies and ensure me that these feelings were not based on some fantasy about how the blade "might" work.

So how do we solve the information/communication gap making more customers happy like me and not making them so angry that they write letters to knife magazines?

As I mentioned in my earlier post, inform your re-sellers on your methods, what material you use and what the model can and cannot do. If you have a site or catalogue, same thing applies. This way a customer can avoid buying a product that doesn´t fill his/her needs.

If you decide to use materials that you know are non-traditional but better and maybe cheaper, inform your potential customer. He or she won´t be happy when he/she finds out you used a cheaper material (emotional need).

If you are a "legend" and farm out parts and maybe let a family member/trainee/worker do some of the work, inform your potentional customer. There is a high probability your knife is sought after because you are a legend and because YOU made it with YOUR hands (emotional need).

If you make a fancy folder make sure it can withstand the use a potentional customer will throw at it. Damascus is nice but cutting fruit might not bring out the best in such a blade (practical need).

These three examples are what I´m talking about. It might be obvious to you as a maker but for me as a customer it´s impossible to keep up with every detail. A little information goes a long way and it also means that I won´t have to bother you with the same questions you´ve heard a million times. We can immediately go on to the essence of my need(s) or I can immediately move on to another maker where the potential is higher to get my needs satisfied.

/Colinz
 
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