Interesting take on batoning

[Gaston444]

I thought this is a nice series of opinion videos:

I particularly liked his take on military knives (middle of 2nd video) and how current trends reflect desert environments where there is no wood to chop...

His observation on the enormous effort a debris shelter takes is also a good point.

I liked his debunking that steel should always win when batoning against wood, then his advice to search for all brands and failures, and then look at the cause... To which I would add the caveat that soft steel and fat (thus dull) convex edges are certainly "better" if you wish to call soft and dull "better"... That was the very first thing that struck me when I came back to this hobby (especially how often even moderate cold seems to have a big effect on breakage: Precisely when you would want a fire the most), after last being there in an age where the word "batoning" did not exist...

Gaston

 

[Standard78]

The only part that I really agreed with is in the second video where he talks about carrying EDC stuff that makes sense for the surrounding you’re in.
All of those little doodads on a keychain are kind of goofy, but not nearly as dumb as carrying sleeping pills in a hollow-handled knife.

As far as batoning goes, I’m all for it as long as the person doing it doesn’t bite off more than they can chew. Moderation is key.
Using a wedge is an obvious no brainer, but that piece of garbage he made was a joke. To big of a diameter, way too short, and the striking surface wasn’t cut flat.
I’m surprised he didn’t wack the hell out of his hands while using it.
That knife must be way more important than the digits that secure it in a hand.

 

[Plainsman]

"Always" and "never" are two words in the English vocabulary that should be used carefully! There are few instances where they are 100% accurate.

 

[Gaston444]

To be fair, making a good wedge by itself is a fair amount of extra work, and it does require, on top of that, making a "starting" slot. And it also requires being hit quite a bit harder...

Me, the decisive issue was when I found out that any knife batoning causes instant and pretty deep micro-folding of the edge apex, this on knives that showed none in hundreds of chops...

To avoid that, it means you either need knives that are so dull they are compromised to begin with (40 degree inclusive wedges or more), or it means, this in most cases I would guess, that the user doesn't know enough to detect micro-folding...

What a lot of people don't get is that steel that is "pinched" is not free to vibrate, and the exact right pitch of this vibration, if it matches the steel's status when pinched, will create a matching "traction" as the impact's vibration is amplified by the pinched steel on every cycle: The cycle then increases in amplitude until the steel fractures. There is no real "flaw" in most steels that broke from batoning...: The sinusoidal traction cycle increased until it finally found the weak point, that's all...

People assume that the knife they see broken in picture is fundamentally different from the one on their belt... They make this assumption even when the knife is the exact same model they have, because they have batoned hundreds, or thousands, of times with theirs... They think it's under their control, when in fact almost all breaks come from batoning, and all their experience means is they haven't found the exact right vibration pitch to break them (or they have a fundamentally softer steel, with lower edge-holding)...

In fact a rock probably causes less vibration than wood, because it crumbles when it hits metal, or the metal actually deforms from the rock's hardness... Neither absorbing effects occurs with a wood stick, especially if the knife has no swedge.

Batoning with a wood stick is likely riskier than with a rock. Which kind of says it all. Then there is the hidden knot you can't see... Given that thin branches tend to be drier and less rotten ("rotten" meaning soft outside and super-hard inside), or that I can chop-strip the wet bark on a log, I'll pass.

Gaston

 

[Standard78]

Why don’t you spend some time actually using a knife instead of hypothosizing or plagiarizing someone else’s research?

Hearsay doesn’t float boats here bubba.

 

[kvaughn]

Why don’t you spend some time actually using a knife instead of hypothosizing or plagiarizing someone else’s research?

Hearsay doesn’t float boats here bubba.

What he said!--KV

 

[Shotgun]

I glanced through the first vid with the sound off so I may have missed something.

Wedges usually work better when they're long and thin IME.

He cuts and then batons with his arm/fingers in the direct path. Saws can bite too.

He rocks his knife back and forth in wood. That is the only time I usually take damage to a knife. That rocking motion is hell on an edge.

I can baton or not baton. I choose to baton because it's quicker, requires less energy and it keeps my limbs/fingers safe. I guess I'll have to live with some YouTube know it all thinking what I do is stupid. Oh WOE IS ME!!! LOL

P.S. OP, if the vids start off with some dorks in camo with assault rifles and it's not an Army commercial, what you're about to hear shortly after is usually BS.

 

[JohnWE]

To be fair, making a good wedge by itself is a fair amount of extra work, and it does require, on top of that, making a "starting" slot. And it also requires being hit quite a bit harder...

Me, the decisive issue was when I found out that any knife batoning causes instant and pretty deep micro-folding of the edge apex, this on knives that showed none in hundreds of chops...

To avoid that, it means you either need knives that are so dull they are compromised to begin with (40 degree inclusive wedges or more), or it means, this in most cases I would guess, that the user doesn't know enough to detect micro-folding...

What a lot of people don't get is that steel that is "pinched" is not free to vibrate, and the exact right pitch of this vibration, if it matches the steel's status when pinched, will create a matching "traction" as the impact's vibration is amplified by the pinched steel on every cycle: The cycle then increases in amplitude until the steel fractures. There is no real "flaw" in most steels that broke from batoning...: The sinusoidal traction cycle increased until it finally found the weak point, that's all...

People assume that the knife they see broken in picture is fundamentally different from the one on their belt... They make this assumption even when the knife is the exact same model they have, because they have batoned hundreds, or thousands, of times with theirs... They think it's under their control, when in fact almost all breaks come from batoning, and all their experience means is they haven't found the exact right vibration pitch to break them (or they have a fundamentally softer steel, with lower edge-holding)...

In fact a rock probably causes less vibration than wood, because it crumbles when it hits metal, or the metal actually deforms from the rock's hardness... Neither absorbing effects occurs with a wood stick, especially if the knife has no swedge.

Batoning with a wood stick is likely riskier than with a rock. Which kind of says it all. Then there is the hidden knot you can't see... Given that thin branches tend to be drier and less rotten ("rotten" meaning soft outside and super-hard inside), or that I can chop-strip the wet bark on a log, I'll pass.

Gaston

You should probably be seeking some help for whatever psychological issues you're suffering from. You should also use words that actually mean what you think they mean.

 

[Pàdruig]

To be fair, making a good wedge by itself is a fair amount of extra work, and it does require, on top of that, making a "starting" slot. And it also requires being hit quite a bit harder...

Me, the decisive issue was when I found out that any knife batoning causes instant and pretty deep micro-folding of the edge apex, this on knives that showed none in hundreds of chops...

To avoid that, it means you either need knives that are so dull they are compromised to begin with (40 degree inclusive wedges or more), or it means, this in most cases I would guess, that the user doesn't know enough to detect micro-folding...

What a lot of people don't get is that steel that is "pinched" is not free to vibrate, and the exact right pitch of this vibration, if it matches the steel's status when pinched, will create a matching "traction" as the impact's vibration is amplified by the pinched steel on every cycle: The cycle then increases in amplitude until the steel fractures. There is no real "flaw" in most steels that broke from batoning...: The sinusoidal traction cycle increased until it finally found the weak point, that's all...

People assume that the knife they see broken in picture is fundamentally different from the one on their belt... They make this assumption even when the knife is the exact same model they have, because they have batoned hundreds, or thousands, of times with theirs... They think it's under their control, when in fact almost all breaks come from batoning, and all their experience means is they haven't found the exact right vibration pitch to break them (or they have a fundamentally softer steel, with lower edge-holding)...

In fact a rock probably causes less vibration than wood, because it crumbles when it hits metal, or the metal actually deforms from the rock's hardness... Neither absorbing effects occurs with a wood stick, especially if the knife has no swedge.

Batoning with a wood stick is likely riskier than with a rock. Which kind of says it all. Then there is the hidden knot you can't see... Given that thin branches tend to be drier and less rotten ("rotten" meaning soft outside and super-hard inside), or that I can chop-strip the wet bark on a log, I'll pass.

Gaston

To be frank here, I don't see how any of what you stated in the above quote is in any way, relevant. There are many of us here who actually spend a fair amount of time in the woods, using our tools, and not being troubled by the supposed (probably nonsense) "science" behind what you are attempting to convey. There are many good points on either side of the "To baton or not to baton" argument. Muddying the waters with your hypothesis(?) really isn't contributing anything of any real merit.

As far as batoning goes, I’m all for it as long as the person doing it doesn’t bite off more than they can chew. Moderation is key.
Using a wedge is an obvious no brainer, but that piece of garbage he made was a joke. To big of a diameter, way too short, and the striking surface wasn’t cut flat.
I’m surprised he didn’t wack the hell out of his hands while using it.
That knife must be way more important than the digits that secure it in a hand.

I glanced through the first vid with the sound off so I may have missed something.

Wedges usually work better when they're long and thin IME.

He cuts and then batons with his arm/fingers in the direct path. Saws can bite too.

He rocks his knife back and forth in wood. That is the only time I usually take damage to a knife. That rocking motion is hell on an edge.

I can baton or not baton. I choose to baton because it's quicker, requires less energy and it keeps my limbs/fingers safe. I guess I'll have to live with some YouTube know it all thinking what I do is stupid. Oh WOE IS ME!!! LOL

P.S. OP, if the vids start off with some dorks in camo with assault rifles and it's not an Army commercial, what you're about to hear shortly after is usually BS.

I used to be of a mind that batoning was unnecessary, especially when one brings an axe. However, after suffering an injury after using said axe, I realized that had I used a baton and a knife in the cold wet snow, it would have been far safer and far more efficient and I have become a believer ever since. It truly is about moderation though, and applying the technique when it is most prudent, while understanding that there are far more ways to "skin a cat" so to speak.

I watched the first video about halfway through and then moved on. I also watched without the sound so it is possible I am missing something poignant, but I find it unlikely. I just found it to be dumb and the whole premise on which the video was created is simply rather silly. Using a baton is a rather old technique and a rather viable one at that. Creating a video simply to demonstrate why it is "stupid" and then clumsily showing the "alternative" really doesn't have me sold. Wedges are undoubtedly useful but again, they have to be practically and prudently applied. Just like with anything in regards to Bushcraft and Survival.

 

[Gaston444]

I glanced through the first vid with the sound off so I may have missed something.

Wedges usually work better when they're long and thin IME.

He cuts and then batons with his arm/fingers in the direct path. Saws can bite too.

He rocks his knife back and forth in wood. That is the only time I usually take damage to a knife. That rocking motion is hell on an edge.

I can baton or not baton. I choose to baton because it's quicker, requires less energy and it keeps my limbs/fingers safe. I guess I'll have to live with some YouTube know it all thinking what I do is stupid. Oh WOE IS ME!!! LOL

P.S. OP, if the vids start off with some dorks in camo with assault rifles and it's not an Army commercial, what you're about to hear shortly after is usually BS.

He's a professional guide who offers survival courses that people actually pay for. I'd say that puts him ahead of most people here, who are at the "440 sucks" level of cluelessness...

Gaston

 

[Standard78]

He's a professional guide who offers survival courses that people actually pay for. I'd say that puts him ahead of most people here, who are at the "440 sucks" level of cluelessness...

Gaston

What does “440 sucking” have to do with this thread?

On another note, “professional” doesn’t mean jack these days.
I know quite a few mouth-breathing morons that think they’re professional.

 

[hexenjager]

He's a professional guide who offers survival courses that people actually pay for.

Which doesn't mean a darned thing, even if it's true. I've been to plenty of talks, etc where the paid speaker (painfully obviously if you had actual first hand experience with the subject at hand) didn't know spit about what they were "teaching". They just went to a lot effort to sound like they knew what they were talking about and sound technical , i.e., baffle 'em with bs. It works like a charm as long as the people they're charging for their "teaching" know even less than they do.

I'd say that puts him ahead of most people here, who are at the "440 sucks" level of cluelessness...

So how far is that ahead of the ALL PM steels suck level of cluelessness?

 

[DOC-CANADA]

Tried to watch 2 of the videos - couldn't make it through both of them - the guy is a bit much to take. As to batoning, nobody can argue that using a wooden wedge isn't more safe than batoning with your knife, but since I've been batoning for 55 plus years, I don't think I will change my technique now. This topic rears its ugly head every once in a while - bottom line - baton if you want, don't if you don't. By the way, batoning is a technique used by Ray Mears, Chris Janowsky (R.I.P.), Mors Kochanski, Ron Hood (R.I.P.), Les Stroud, Jeff Randall, George Jasper, Cody Lundin, Ethan Becker and Dave Canterbury. I guess they never got the chance to see the videos.

 

[Mo2]

honestly if the knaf is made correctly batoning is no issue. just watch out for knots.

 

[Grease]

In a SURVIVAL situation? Sometimes. Depends on how cold and how wet it is. If its cold but dry, gathering fallen wood should be enough for a fire. If its cold and wet, the only dry stuff is gonna be at the core of thicker logs. And unless you're one of us crazies, you probably didn't bring a hatchet or axe on whatever little dayhike you got lost on.

And, obviously, if its warm... Why are you gather wood in the first place? Just take a nap

 

[22-rimfire]

In a SURVIVAL situation? Sometimes. Depends on how cold and how wet it is. If its cold but dry, gathering fallen wood should be enough for a fire. If its cold and wet, the only dry stuff is gonna be at the core of thicker logs. And unless you're one of us crazies, you probably didn't bring a hatchet or axe on whatever little dayhike you got lost on.

And, obviously, if its warm... Why are you gather wood in the first place? Just take a nap

It is possible to get a bit twisted up on a day hike especially if you explore off the trail or simply wander around like I do. But unless you're hurt, it's unlikely to become a survival situation.

Why build a fire if it's warm? Cause it's fun or maybe to make some tea or roast a weinie.

 

[scrappy]

I use an axe for starting the process of splitting wood often but when I need something smaller for starting a file I use batoning to process down to that size. I think it is very helpful.

some times I do process larger wood with a big knife just because it's fun.

 

[The Zieg]

Yah, survival. Meaning it's not a planned situation. Meaning most won't have an axe, hatchet, or tomahawk. That's what the poll is asking about. Me, I have batonned, will again, and find it an important skill to master. But I almost always have a hatchet or tomahawk. One in my emergency kit in the car, another in my backpack for hiking.

Zieg

 

[Lapedog]

The only part that I really agreed with is in the second video where he talks about carrying EDC stuff that makes sense for the surrounding you’re in.
All of those little doodads on a keychain are kind of goofy, but not nearly as dumb as carrying sleeping pills in a hollow-handled knife.

As far as batoning goes, I’m all for it as long as the person doing it doesn’t bite off more than they can chew. Moderation is key.
Using a wedge is an obvious no brainer, but that piece of garbage he made was a joke. To big of a diameter, way too short, and the striking surface wasn’t cut flat.
I’m surprised he didn’t wack the hell out of his hands while using it.
That knife must be way more important than the digits that secure it in a hand.

Yo what are you talking about. Didn't you hear the man. He said like ten times that wedge was pure skill!

 

[longit]

you can baton an axe, ya know. with a rock if you wish/need to. If all you have is a knife, you're crazy to risk losing that precious tool by beating on it, especially in cold weather. Knocking a big chip out of the middle of your most used section of the knife, it might as well have been broken in half. You can start a split with a saw, in 2 ways, and regardless of the "extra work" wedges are much less of a risk to you and your blade (if you know how to make and use same, of course).