Interesting thread on Strider SnG vs Sebenza

Actually, when you open a SnG, you typically start with the hole then slide up to the stop pin/thumb stud. It sounds odd, but works great. BTW, the stop pin/thumb stud is very comfortable.
 
After looking at all the pics that Lynn sent me (thanks Lynn) I have to change my assertion that all striders are ugly :D

I dont like the tanto bladed ones or any of the non SnG folders (which are UGLY :D ) but the drop and clip point sng's look pretty good.

However if I am going to spend this sort of dosh on a folder it need to be lefthanded and from reading the above this does not look likely.
 
The one difference in functionality I can see from the picture is the Sebenza appears to have about ½" more cutting edge than the Strider, where the knives look to be about the same dimensions otherwise. Also, on the Strider, that portion of the blade that is missing (the choil area) is the very area one uses most when sharpening aiming stakes, a spear head, or just whittling. You get much more leverage in cutting something close to your hand as opposed to farther away -- near the tip. This is an important issue. I've noticed all Striders -- especially the fixed blades, have "huge" choils. Some would say that allows one to choke up on the blade. Well, if the choil was smaller, one wouldn't have to choke up so much.

Just an observation from one who uses knives.

Bruce Woodbury
 
The advantage that I find with this extra choil space is that it allows for a great grip on the knife, and also positions it differently in the hand.

And you mention leverage near the hand when cutting, I find that it is improved with the extra choil space, while the loss of 1/2" is not that big of a deal. The knife still cuts very well, and cuts just about everything I need cut.
 
Bruce, have you ever used a Strider folder? Like mschwoeb said, the choile "allows for a great grip on the knife" and positions your index finger (very comfortably) within one centimeter of the cutting edge of the blade.
 
I have held off on this for a while, but I am going to throw this out:

Open up an SnG, hold it in your hand.

Open up a Spyderco Native, hold it in your hand.

Put a flat grind on a Spydie Native and you have virtually identical cutting tools. The new Natives are being done in S30V, so you have the same steel.

Now I prefer a framelock over a mid-lock any day. So, add another 3/4 inch to a Ti Salsa and again, you have a very similar cutting tool.

I realize that this is in the Chris Reeve Knives forum - but I throw in the Spydie because I don't think that the Sebenza can really compare to the kind of hard grip you can develop on both the SnG and the Native or Salsa.

The Classic Sebenza is another story - but that clip point isn't nearly as durable as the classic drop point shape on the other knives mentioned.
 
Hey guys, I understand the concept. I even designed a fixed blade hunting knife with space around the choil so I could choke up and do some fine work like "caping". ...but the reasoning you guys use indicates that to get that leverage, YOU HAVE TO CHOKE UP, no choice! I get the same thing by holding my knife up around the pivot pin. I'm not saying the Sebenza is better than the Sng, but your reasoning just doesn't ring true. If so, you could have a 3 inch choil and a half inch of blade and get in close -- why not just have a half inch of blade and a handle? Sorry, no go! I'd rather have the cutting edge as close to my hand as possible -- think about sharpening a stick for a spear, making tent pegs, cutting litter poles, etc. You want to get right up close to the hand holding the knife, or your hand gets mighty tired.

I used to be a meat cutter and a professional game animal processor so it's not like I haven't used a knife before. I used to make my living with a knife in my hand. If you guys want to get close to the tip of your knife for fine work, get a knife with a shorter blade.

Bruce
 
Found out via the UsualSuspect that the tension on the pivot of the SnG is dependent on the tightness of the pivot screw, as opposed to the Sebenza.
Meaning, If you overtighten the pivot screw on an SnG, you can ( I guess ) make it very hard for the blade to open/close, while on the Sebenza, this has no effect.

Also, If I read everything correct, the lock on the SnG stops to a certain position on the tang due to the 'fixed' tension on the Ti-handle slab, while on the Sebenza it stops because it hits the lightly angled ramp/tang.
On my Sebenza, I can push it further if I want, I know that that is common and sort of by design on the Sebenza, (tighter grip=tighter lock) but honestly don't know where that 'play' is coming from? Is it in the lock bar, handles or the pivot?



Ted
 
Put a flat grind on a Spydie Native and you have virtually identical cutting tools.
Click to expand...
I just got my Native in and I realized this. I got them out and tried them side-by-side.

I must respectfully disagree.

They look the same, and they feel the same, but to me, they don't handle the same at all.

The SnG is just enough bigger than the Native that it rides differently in the handle. Also, the slanted butt means that when you hold it not-in-choil (handle only) it cants forward to give you very strong leverage, whereas the Native doesn't. I kind of think of the SnG as similar, but bigger and better. Similarly to the Salsa -- the SnG is only a tiny big bigger on paper, but it handles much more substantially than the Salsa.

but the reasoning you guys use indicates that to get that leverage, YOU HAVE TO CHOKE UP, no choice!
Click to expand...
This is not true. As I mentioned above, I use mine often without choking up on the choil, and you get a pretty different grip. With the choil-grip, you hold it "above" the knife. With the regular handle-grip, you hold it "above-and-behind" the knife. You get a fairly different cutting style.

Also, If I read everything correct, the lock on the SnG stops to a certain position on the tang due to the 'fixed' tension on the Ti-handle slab, while on the Sebenza it stops because it hits the lightly angled ramp/tang.
Click to expand...
I'm not sure I understand. In the "closed" position, the SnG stops due to the knife blade choil meeting up with the backspacer. In the open position, the blade stops due to the lock bar pushing the stop-pins (thumb studs) against the two slabs. As far as i know, nowhere is there a difference in fixed or floating tension.

The Seb's lockbar pushes the blade tang against the stop pin.

The SnG's lockbar pushes the stop pins against the handle slabs.

Hope this clarifies (or adds fuel to the fire). :)

-Jon
 
I'm not sure I understand. In the "closed" position, the SnG stops due to the knife blade choil meeting up with the backspacer. In the open position, the blade stops due to the lock bar pushing the stop-pins (thumb studs) against the two slabs. As far as i know, nowhere is there a difference in fixed or floating tension.

The Seb's lockbar pushes the blade tang against the stop pin.

The SnG's lockbar pushes the stop pins against the handle slabs.

Hope this clarifies (or adds fuel to the fire).
Click to expand...

Jon, reason I posted it because I found this thread:

http://www.usualsuspect.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17443&highlight=sng

The SnG has a small (really small, but still noticeable) up-and-down blade play. The problem is that the locking Ti bar is not engaging far enough. It travels about 3mm across the lock-cut-out in the blade and than stops. The cause of the “stop” is not that the locking bar touches the blade but the bar is just not spring-loaded any more. If I push the bar toward the centre of the handle the bar goes another 1,5mm and locks the blade PERFECTLY. But when I take my thumb off the locking bar and let it free than the bar springs back this 1,5mm to the side and the lock-up is not like I expect in SnG.

The solution is simple – load some more “spring force” to the locking Ti bar. So it looks like I just should take my torx set (I’m a hobby knifemaker so I have my shop, tools and experience), take SnG apart and bend the Ti 2mm further. But is this so simple?
Click to expand...

So that made me think the the lockbar on the SnG 'floats' as you say it. I was just finding out how they are constructed, not judging them.
 
Ted,

Ahh.

That was probably (I say probably because I don't know, but as you noticed, I posted in that thread about the same problem, so I'm extrapolating here) a result of an incorrectly tensioned lockbar. It's supposed to be tight.

I had a similar problem and I adjusted it manually by tightening the tension. This can also be done with the Seb (which I've done.) It makes the action a little tighter if you don't get it exactly right, but that's probably a symptom of any framelock with a very strong lockbar tension (also a problem with the Seb).

This means that the action can be affected by a number of factors:

1- The pivot screw tension (this applies only if your knife doesn't have a bushing, i.e. not a Microtech or CRK)

2- The lockbar tension on the blade flat

3- Smoothness of the detent ball track on the blade flat

Hope this helps.

-Jon
 
Yes it does indeed. And, now I finally know what a bushing is!

Thanks,
Ted
 
biogon, what do you mean it doesn't work? I guess the difference is I've been talking about cutting hard or large stuff. I'm not choking up on any knife where heavy pressure is needed. I guess you may be right if you're dicing onions or skinning a fish. As I said, I have a hunting knife that I can choke up on for caping -- delicate work, not a lot of pressure but a lot of precision trying not to cut holes in the hide. ...but I don't want the cutting edge out an inch away from my hand when I need to bear down. ...and a 3½" knife will stay 30% sharper than a 2½" knife when used the same, because of the extra cutting surface.

Bruce
 
Man, it's amazing how often my situation comes up.
Here's the story in a nutshell:
- I took my Sebenza apart to bend the lock bar outward in an attempt to loosen the unlocking tension.
- If you look at the Sebenza mechanism, this lets the lock bar sit more to the left, away from the opposite handle slab, but will still travel inward with a tight grip.
- This action did indeed reduce unlocking tension.
- Some time later, my Sebenza developed both lateral and vertical play when locked open (very minimal play)
- I sent the knife into CRK
- Chris called me personally and suggested that the blade play was from excessive "flicking open". Now, once again, if you're familiar with the Sebenza mechanism, you'll know flicking it open is extremely difficult, if not impossible due to the ball detent. Additionally, I know exactly how I did and did not open my Sebenza.
- Chris offered me a new handle scale (lock bar side, and blade for $100). Apparently, Chris felt that the blade was oversharpened and didn't want to give me the orig one back. Go figure! I took the deal grudgingly at first because I still maintain I did nothing wrong.
- Anyway, I've gotten over it all and have been using the repaired Sebenza daily with no other problems. The lock bar has moved toward the opposite handle scale slightly and has settled in at approx 75% coverage of the blade tang.
- As far as I'm concerned, the situation is over. I don't really know the reason my Sebbie developed blade play, but I'm certain it wasn't due to me flicking it open too much.

Getting to the SnG:
I briefly handled one last Nov at the NY show.
I noted slight play in the blade in both directions when locked.
Other than the orig problem I had with my Sebenza, I've never noticed play in any other Sebenza I've ever handled. Plus, the appearance of the SnG just looked goofy to me.
Lenny
 
Lenny, good to hear your side of the story, it puts things in perspective.
About the SnG, I'm having second thoughts, the absence of a bushing around the pivot is a 'disappointment' for me. I really admire the construction of the Sebenza where you can screw it down tight and still have butter smooth action and no play.

Ted
 
"About the SnG, I'm having second thoughts, the absence of a bushing around the pivot is a 'disappointment' for me."

Ted, just for grins, here's 2 pictures. The first is a field stripped Sebenza, the second is a field stripped SnG.
 

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Lynn, thanks a lot for those picture. I was actually planning to take apart my Seb tonight and post a similair picture. You saved me a lot of time. I could not have taken a better picture!

Am I correct in saying that the Sebenza bushing is the small metalic 'ring/bus' between the two bronze washers in the picture?
(Just to get my technical english straight).

Does anyone know how the type of screws 'sets' are called that are used in the Sebenza

Thanks again for the pics!

Ted

Edit: Lynn, your washers are the same size (diameter). On my Seb the one on the lock side is smaller then the other one. ??
 
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