Interesting verbal exchange with a police officer regarding a knife

Stahlmann said:
Lots of municipalities have more stringent laws, but I don't believe they are legal. They cannot contravene state law, which they do.
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Under the California State Constitution, it is legal for counties and cities to pass and enforce laws (ordinances) that are stricter than state laws.

What counties and cities cannot do is make something legal that state law says is illegal.
 
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When I take part of 3-Gun matches I carry an intentionally-dulled Lightning OTF knife as a super fast deploying tool which can be used to clear severe jams should they happen, which is very rare.

One day it happened, I whipped out the Lightning OTF and it worked perfectly (and very quickly.) The guy timing me was a CA Highway Patrol officer. After recording my score he told me that OTFs the size I was carrying are illegal in CA. I explained the blade has been intentionally dulled and other than competition, it resides in my range bag. It's not as if I carry it around. He was mollified and that was that. Now I jut carry a small fixed blade on my belt.
 
I’m not sure what would happen if I pulled out a knife that large (probably nothing), but I’ve had a police officer recognize my Sebenza while it was in my pocket and told me it was cool... And then pulled out a behemoth Medford. He told me about a knife shop ten miles away that I didn’t know about and have gotten some really good deals from since. Rad guy.
 
killgar said:
Under the California State Constitution, it is legal for counties and cities to pass and enforce laws (ordinances) that are stricter than state laws.

What counties and cities cannot do is make something legal that state law says is illegal.
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You're right. I had that flipped around. The city I live in has stricter knife laws than the state. Yet in those laws, it specifically says that any law which contravenes state law is invalid. Thus the blade length is unlimited for a folder.
 
Wow, the L. Luzon is huge! 6" blade :eek: Actually surprised he didn't press you further about it or maybe confiscate. I mean it isn't like a Spyderco DragonFly couldn't handle a sticker remove job. Then again, what would be the fun in that.😊 This makes me curious about carrying my aluminum Large Don manualized with its 4.5" blade. Always thought in California folder blade length has to be under 4". Did they remove this aspect?

Agreeing with others, likely because you are in a small town the event played out differently that had been in San Fran or L.A. Heard L.A. is super strict on weapons carry. Also wonder how the situation might have been different had you been wearing a hoodie and been in the evening like 10pm or later.

From the posts here it makes me feel good to be in California but at the same time sure would love to EDC the non-Cali version of the UTX-70 with blade length 2.4". It's a tiny blade and small handle too (size of pinky). Would cops and policeman/women look the other way or haul me in and tac on a hefty fine with possible jail time? fyi I'm not a scary looking biker dude.
 
Stahlmann said:
I was in the midst of a walk in the small city in which I live when I realized I needed to drop into a nearby supermarket. I was carrying a popular sports drink bottle which I had refilled with water. Not wanting to confuse any of the cashiers I figured I had better remove the label from the bottle before entering the store.

While waiting for a traffic light I tried to remove the label. The darned things are tenacious! So I broke out my blade carry for the occasion -- a large CS Luzon. The big guy flicked open with authority and made quick work of the label.

Just as I was folding it back up against my leg, a cop in a cruiser maybe 10' away (so much for situational awareness, huh?) said "hey, that's a big knife!" I replied with "well, that's relative" to wit he asked "what kinda knife is it?" "It's the large Cold Steel Luzon." "Looks like a great knife?" "Yeah, great value too" as I shoved it back into my pocket.

The light changed, he smiled and nodded, I returned, and we went our respective ways. Not a bad experience, although I should have been more situationally aware.

I would be interested to hear how something similar would go in different locations? I'm in California.

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Here in Sweden we have a somewhat ambiguous knife law, essentially it just says you’re not allowed to carry a knife with the purpose of committing a crime (duh!!)

The police has a website though where they actually write that “normal use of pocket knives and multi tools is allowed”. Still, that foldable machete of yours may fit in a large pocket I assume, but I limit my edcs to SAKs and recently my RR trapper. I wouldn’t carry a locking folder btw, just slipjoints
 
Gilbert G said:
Wow, the L. Luzon is huge! 6" blade :eek: Actually surprised he didn't press you further about it or maybe confiscate. I mean it isn't like a Spyderco DragonFly couldn't handle a sticker remove job. Then again, what would be the fun in that.😊 This makes me curious about carrying my aluminum Large Don manualized with its 4.5" blade. Always thought in California folder blade length has to be under 4". Did they remove this aspect?

Agreeing with others, likely because you are in a small town the event played out differently that had been in San Fran or L.A. Heard L.A. is super strict on weapons carry. Also wonder how the situation might have been different had you been wearing a hoodie and been in the evening like 10pm or later.

From the posts here it makes me feel good to be in California but at the same time sure would love to EDC the non-Cali version of the UTX-70 with blade length 2.4". It's a tiny blade and small handle too (size of pinky). Would cops and policeman/women look the other way or haul me in and tac on a hefty fine with possible jail time? fyi I'm not a scary looking biker dude.
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He had no basis to question me or confiscate the knife. CA State Law does not limit the length of knife blades -- fixed or folding. Never has to my knowledge.

I'm not in a "small town." I'm in a small city of about 80K as stated.

I own several automatics but I don't carry them as that would be illegal in CA (see example above.) I would if I really wanted to for some reason, but I wouldn't be obtuse enough to actuate them in public. "Stop-question-frisk" is illegal throughout CA, so unless you're doing something wrong, no one would ever know.
 
Stahlmann said:
Ohhhhh, OK... Gotcha.

Had I not been in exercise clothes I would have had two knives -- a "big one" and a "small one." The big one might well be the Luzon or a fixed blade. The small one is typically a small slipjoint. In the case of the label, I would have likely used the small one for the job...
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Makes total sense...

But the "big ones" are unimaginable here. I'm about to give myself a nice CS folder, but it'll be an AK-47 precisely because of the smaller size of the blade.
 
I have a real problem with this.
I need to speak to a manager. Right away. Stick guy? Are you out there?
Ok here’s the deal - I simply do not understand why they didn’t/don’t put a tri-ad lock (and larger lower guard) on this knife. It would instantly be world class.
 
Stahlmann said:
He had no basis to question me or confiscate the knife. CA State Law does not limit the length of knife blades -- fixed or folding. Never has to my knowledge.

I'm not in a "small town." I'm in a small city of about 80K as stated.

I own several automatics but I don't carry them as that would be illegal in CA (see example above.) I would if I really wanted to for some reason, but I wouldn't be obtuse enough to actuate them in public. "Stop-question-frisk" is illegal throughout CA, so unless you're doing something wrong, no one would ever know.
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Well that's good news about the blade length. Also great news "stop and frisk" unless given a reason though suppose could be subject to interpretation by the police on hand.

This are my thoughts exactly as did carry the utx-70 to a lake once and works fantabulous with shorts. It was really nice to have a handy OTF on hand. I've actually never given a cop once a reason to search in my life but you never know. Have a hunch a lot of Californians carry an auto from time to time despite the laws yet heard those laws are about to change. This has been talk going on a year now and likely the pandemic set things back.

The Luzon looks light despite its size. How you been liking it for performance?
 
knarfeng said:
San Francisco and Los Angeles have more stringent laws, but the state laws in California are pretty reasonable:
No limits on folder size.
You can carry a fixed blade if it is in a sheath on your belt. But not if it is in your pocket.
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That's interesting... But why? A fixed blade in a pocket is considered "concealed"?

In Portugal any "concealed" blade (for instance, a credit card knife) is forbidden.
 
My run ins with cops have always gone well. You only get one chance to make a first impression. So don’t act like you did anything wrong, be respectful, don’t be drunk, stoned, or stupid.

If you have too, make them aware that nothing is a weapon unless it’s used as a weapon. A good example is a shoe. It’s just a shoe until it’s “assault and battery with a shod foot”. A knife is no different

I always look like I’m going fishing or going to work so a knife doesn’t seem out of place on me. Also I could be legally carrying a gun so a knife is not a weapon, if I wanted a weapon I would have taken a gun

A funny story I was driving with my wife and three kids. My little guy was about 4. I saw a speed trap ahead so I told my wife careful there is a cop ahead. From the back seat my 4 yo says. “Everyone just act natural”
 
tess_lawrie_fan said:
That's interesting... But why? A fixed blade in a pocket is considered "concealed"?

In Portugal any "concealed" blade (for instance, a credit card knife) is forbidden.
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The "concealed dirk or dagger" laws of California are a little complicated. First, any fixed-blade that is "capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon" is defined under California law as a "dirk or dagger" (CA penal code 16470), regardless of it's design or number of edges. Technically, a fixed-blade is not considered "concealed" just because it's carried in a pocket.

The California penal code does specify that carrying a fixed-blade openly in a sheath suspended from the waist is not to be considered a "concealed dirk or dagger" (CA penal code 20200), but that is not the only manner of fixed-blade carry that is legal.

Here's where it gets complicated- just because a fixed-blade is concealed, it's not automatically a violation of the prohibition on concealed fixed-blades.

Superior court rulings in California have determined that the illegality of a concealed fixed-blade is to be determined by the intent of the person carrying the knife (as well as the knifes ability to be used as a "stabbing weapon"). If a prosecutor can demonstrate that a person was intentionally trying to conceal a fixed-blade, and if that person were convicted, that conviction would stand. However, the courts have determined that if a person were caught with a concealed fixed-blade, but they were not intentionally trying to conceal it, then they should not be charged, much less convicted, and such a conviction could be overturned.

If a person were carrying a fixed-blade in their pocket, and if it were not clearly identifiable as a fixed-blade (maybe only a small portion of the handle showing), and if it could be proven that it was the persons intent to conceal the knife, then they could be prosecuted, and if convicted, their conviction upheld on appeal.

To put it simply- if it's clear that a person was intentionally trying to conceal a fixed-blade from view, then they have broken the law.
 
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Gilbert G said:
Well that's good news about the blade length. Also great news "stop and frisk" unless given a reason though suppose could be subject to interpretation by the police on hand.

This are my thoughts exactly as did carry the utx-70 to a lake once and works fantabulous with shorts. It was really nice to have a handy OTF on hand. I've actually never given a cop once a reason to search in my life but you never know. Have a hunch a lot of Californians carry an auto from time to time despite the laws yet heard those laws are about to change. This has been talk going on a year now and likely the pandemic set things back.

The Luzon looks light despite its size. How you been liking it for performance?
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Given how fast/easy flickers are to deploy these days I think advantages of automatics have largely been nullified. As I noted above, I use an inexpensive OTF as a specialized tool, but otherwise I think they're more for show than anything.

The Luzon is a great knife and the large model, an astounding bargain. Yes, some whine about the type of steel they're made from, or their locking mechanism, but I attribute that largely to the Luzon's value pricing -- and the inherent ignorance of many of the whiners. In essence, they're trying to justify the bargain pricing in a negative way.

If you have an interest in this type/size of knife, I would recommend you grab one.
 
killgar said:
The "concealed dirk or dagger" laws of California are a little complicated. First, any fixed-blade that is "capable of ready use as a stabbing weapon" is defined under California law as a "dirk or dagger" (CA penal code 16470), regardless of it's design or number of edges. Technically, a fixed-blade is not considered "concealed" just because it's carried in a pocket.

The California penal code does specify that carrying a fixed-blade openly in a sheath suspended from the waist is not to be considered a "concealed dirk or dagger" (CA penal code 20200), but that is not the only manner of fixed-blade carry that is legal.

Here's where it gets complicated- just because a fixed-blade is concealed, it's not automatically a violation of the prohibition on concealed fixed-blades.

Superior court rulings in California have determined that the illegality of a concealed fixed-blade is to be determined by the intent of the person carrying the knife (as well as the knifes ability to be used as a "stabbing weapon"). If a prosecutor can demonstrate that a person was intentionally trying to conceal a fixed-blade, and if that person were convicted, that conviction would stand. However, the courts have determined that if a person were caught with a concealed fixed-blade, but they were not intentionally trying to conceal it, then they should not be charged, much less convicted, and such a conviction could be overturned.

The court described a few different scenarios to illustrate a persons lack of criminal intent when carrying a concealed fixed-blade, like for example- a person wrapping a fixed-blade kitchen knife in a paper towel and putting it in their pocket for use in food prep at a later time, and, a mechanic or other worker who puts a knife (or other item capable of use as a stabbing weapon) in their pocket and goes to lunch forgetting it's there, and, a person openly carrying a fixed-blade and the knife becomes temporarily covered by an article of clothing. The courts sought to provide legal protection from prosecution for people who were innocently carrying a concealed fixed-blade, but had no criminal intent in doing so.

If a person were carrying a fixed-blade in their pocket, and if it were not clearly identifiable as a fixed-blade (maybe only a small portion of the handle showing), and if it could be proven that it was the persons intent to conceal the knife, then they could be prosecuted, and if convicted, their conviction upheld on appeal.

To put it simply- if it's clear that a person was intentionally trying to conceal a fixed-blade from view, then they have broken the law.

Three of the cases, and case laws, I am referring to regarding the courts determination that the "intent" of a person defines whether or not a concealed knife is a criminal offense are- People of CA v. Rubalcava, People of CA v. Aubrey, and People of CA v. Oskins.

I forget in which case the court referenced an article of clothing accidentally covering an openly carried fixed-blade, but it's out there.
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Be very careful about spreading your opinion as fact and confusing people. In sum, when it comes to the laws of the State of California, it all boils down to:

1.) A person may not conceal a fixed blade knife (or an open folder) on their person, of any size.

2.) A person may legally carry a fixed blade knife (or an open folder) if openly suspended from their waist

3.) Any size folding knife that is indeed closed may be carried concealed or openly on one's body.

For some reason, CA's very simple and straightforward knife laws confuse some, particularly when it comes to the terminology "dirks and daggers." They conjure up stories about double-edged knives being illegal, 4" maximum blade lengths, etc., etc. It just ain't so.
 
I live outside of Detroit. Most of my encounters with police have been traffic related issues in the suburbs of Detroit. None have ever given me an issue with a knife on me. I never carry anything over a 4" blade (CS Recon 1) . Most of my blades are in the 3-3.7" range. If I had a Luzon on me, not sure if someone would say something. I personally would never carry a knife that big. I have a feeling something that big *might* be an issue.

Part of the reason police might not be worried about my knives is that I also have my CPL. I just stick to keeping two hands on the wheel and "Officer, I have a current, valid CPL and am currently carrying on my person, how would you like to continue?". It seems the "oh, you also have a knife" seems like an afterthought.
 
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Stahlmann said:
Be very careful about spreading your opinion as fact and confusing people. In sum, when it comes to the laws of the State of California, it all boils down to:

1.) A person may not conceal a fixed blade knife (or an open folder) on their person, of any size.

2.) A person may legally carry a fixed blade knife (or an open folder) if openly suspended from their waist

3.) Any size folding knife that is indeed closed may be carried concealed or openly on one's body.

For some reason, CA's very simple and straightforward knife laws confuse some, particularly when it comes to the terminology "dirks and daggers." They conjure up stories about double-edged knives being illegal, 4" maximum blade lengths, etc., etc. It just ain't so.
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There is nothing in California law that says the only method of legal carry for a fixed-blade is "openly suspended from the waist of the wearer". For example, there is no law in California against attaching a fixed-blade to the outside of a backpack, as long as it is visible. And no laws forbidding "neck knives", as long as they are visible, to name a few.

Here is a link to the official California legislative website, where all of California state penal statutes can be found- https://www.leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codesTOCSelected.xhtml?tocCode=PEN

I will add, that under no circumstances should a person attempt to conceal a fixed-blade, or an open folder on their person in California.
 
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A friend of mine is a MI State Police officer.
He says your only going to be in trouble for a knife if your already in trouble for something else.

I can live with that.
 
Here in Missouri we can open carry anything. We are limited to a 3” OTF unless we only have 1 arm. Kind of strange but that’s about the only limit I can find.
 
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