International Orders, to do or not to do?

[dave_last]

A weak dollar has made knives from the US particularly attractive to overseas buyers, but are US online knife stores ready to cash in?

Many online knife stores here are reluctant to get involved. Fraud is one big reason. The risk of fraud from overseas orders is greater and to make things worse, unlike with US orders, there is very little protection, if any, from unjustified credit card chargebacks. When it comes to foreign orders, the credit card companies don't even want to know the vendor's side of the story. You took an overseas order? Too bad on you.

As if that's not enough the increased likelihood of shipping losses, insurance claims and other bureaucratic nuisances are a headache not to be overlooked.

And Returns? A nightmare. Expensive shipping is a recipe for both a dissatisfied customer and a frustrated dealer.

So does it have to be an all or nothing? Is it really a choice between either selling to the US only or selling everywhere including Indonesia, Singapore and Ghana?

If you are overseas and reading this, which countries would you like to see more US online knife dealers sell to?

What, if anything, can be done to reduce the downsides to make International orders more worthwile for both customers and dealers?

 

[Elen]

Well, with the dollar at an all-time low, I find myself ordering from the US more often, even some knives that are sold over here in Finland. It would seem to me that, for example, the European Union countries would be safer to deal with than some others. I don't see why it would have to be all or nothing. Over here, many would sell to, say, the US or Japan, but wouldn't even consider selling to Brazil or Egypt, or the Philippines.

 

[The Deacon]

A dealer could specify that payment had to be made by Western Union. That takes the CC companies out of the picture. They could also state that only orders from countries on a list posted on their website would be accepted and that shipment would only be made by a means such as Express Mail that allows the package to be tracked and would be declared at, and insured for, full value.

The dealer could then carefully double / triple check the order against the merchandise to eliminate the need for returns of incorrect goods and, if knowledgeable about the goods he is selling, eliminate the need for the return of things that, in a perfect world, would have been caught by the manufacturer's QC department.

Once the shipment is made, the dealer could make certain to provide the buyer with the tracking information in a timely manner.

The cost for the time involved in doing this could be built into the overseas shipping and handling charges.

 

[huugh]

As for returns - it would save both parties money and time if the dealer checked the item he's sending so as to prevent dissatisfaction (I mean obvious flaws and defects) or atleast perform the check on request.

I don't think many would consider return worthwile (due to high shipping costs) for any reason but flawed product.

IMO part of the customer service should be not to let defective products go all the way to end customer (and then let him bear all the cost and trouble involved to get it right).

As for "all or nothing" - why? You can make a list of "OK" countries you are willing to ship to. What you include in the list is up to you.

If you are afraid of fraud, hmm, maybe limit the value of the order for newcomers?

 

[Greg]

Western Union is really expensive from here in Australia, and adds a lot to the price of any knife. Then, add $28 for trackable post and even a cheap knife is over $100.
How about PayPal for international customers?
Greg

 

[Lenny_Goofoff]

Yeah, PP works even for Russia. USPS Express is reliable and transparent way to ship here. The only downside is our customs (but thats really not your problem).

 

[macrick]

I would like to see shipping provided to Singapore.

However, please note that only single-edge sharpen knives are allowed.

For more details, you might want to see my post regarding about whats prohibited by SG law

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5082318&postcount=27

I would also like to see better prices offered to SG market for brands like Buck, Ka-bar and Case XX.

SG buyers are able to use PP funded by either credit card or debit card.

Thank you

 

[Buffalohump]

I'm in South Africa and have bought the vast majority of my knives from the USA. Some costing a few hundred dollars a pop. I've also had flashlights and other types of gear sent over from the USA. I love US dealers cos they have all the best gear and a 'can-do' attitude. Their customer service is also outstanding. The weaker dollar does help, naturally, but I've been buying for years now.

I find good communication is absolutely the most important thing for a successful deal. Fortunately, English is my first language, so that helps.

Also, a regular presence on the forums helps a lot, particularly forums where they have participating dealers.

I use PayPal almost exclusively and most dealers are down with that.

I have not had a knife go astray to date, but I have a couple in the mail right now and I always get nervous, despite the track record.

I find most dealers are willing and flexible. Private sellers are another story, however.

 

[dave_last]

How about PayPal for international customers?

Yeah, PP works even for Russia.

I'm in South Africa and have bought the vast majority of my knives from the USA... I use PayPal almost exclusively and most dealers are down with that.

Technically there is not much difference between PayPal and Credit Cards since both are equally subject to chargebacks. PayPal Seller Protection only covers orders shipped to the verified addresses of buyers from the US, Canada and the UK.

However, in practice fraud is less common with PayPal and that's especially true of Verified PayPal users. We would certainly ship to overseas customers who are Verified PayPal users using PayPal's new invoice feature.

 

[Haze]

Iv been buying knives from the US for a while now, i always use paypal and have never had any problems so far. shipping is not expensive and the buyer pays it any way so its really a non issue for the dealler. i have had people try to charge super high international shipping costs but that was always from bigger companies with "handeling fees" so i tend to go for the people running a smaller out fit who post the item them selves at actual cost, as a result shipping has always been quite reasonable if not cheep !!!
I live in the UK and Taiwan (not at the same time obviously) and iv never had any problems with people being willing to to ship or shipping generally to either place.
may be iv been lucky but as i say its always been a positive experience for me, given the proposterous prices for knives in the UK i tend to buy all my knives from the US or Taiwan.

 

[Will Power]

A timely thread.

As an EU knife buyer the dollar's weakness AND the range of knives in the US, make buying from there a must.

Get your head around this: SAKS, OPINELS(some) and Fällkniven are a LOT cheaper for me to buy from the US than from Europe even with postage costs!

Shipping/postal charges can vary in a bizarre fashion and I suspect some sellers make a lot out of these charges. For example, a small slipjoint can be anything from 7 dollars to 35 dollars in postage! nothing wrong in a decent box from USPS (a fine company that's never let me down)but sometimes some ragged little padded envelope that you get charged an arm& a leg for...

Even so, I've been very pleased by most sellers and paypal is the common denominator here. It works well for the buyer and is fast. What I don't like is sellers in the US or E-bay WHO DO NOT MAKE IT CLEAR that they will not take international orders or ones who seem clueless about postage costs "er i'll invoice you later" and don't or who want 50 dollars per knife. It's the seller's right to sell where they like but it should be clear.

The main thing is establishing trust and recognition.Proper e-mail communication is vital a seller should check the knife for irritating faults (I've had one such knife and decided never to buy from a certain dealer again due to his offhand attitude about it.actually sending it back to the maker seems to work best) If you are polite to the seller, state your needs and expectations then 95% of the time I've found it goes well very well. If you get good service you return for more and you don't venture elsewhere either. Sellers in the US could find increased sales to their advantage but they simply need to state their terms clearly to EU buyers. 80% of my knife collection has come from US dealers, a hundred knives or so and I'm thankful. Most of my dealers have been very helpful and even send e-mail later on to check if I'm pleased, that's the kind of service I respect a lot.

 

[gajinoz]

I've bought a number of knives from the US without any problems. I can understand why dealers over there might be nervous about shipping to international customers though.

Problem for me in getting knives from overseas is customs. A lot of knives are prohibited and others can fall into very grey areas where individual customs inspectors can decide what they do or don't like. Obviously this isn't the dealers problem but I'm sure there are idiots who would blame them anyway!

As far as payment goes, if the dealers are worried about payment then sure, ask for Western Union transfer before shipping. If you really want the knife then you'll just have to live with the added cost. Maybe if a customer buys a few things and "proves" themselves they can pay with credit card from then on.

I don't know if it would work internationally but here in Oz you can buy things by direct bank deposit. I simply tell my bank to put money directly into the account of the person I'm buying from. That way the guy definitely gets his money and there is a traceable record of it.

 

[huugh]

I've bought a number of knives from the US without any problems. I can understand why dealers over there might be nervous about shipping to international customers though.

Problem for me in getting knives from overseas is customs. A lot of knives are prohibited and others can fall into very grey areas where individual customs inspectors can decide what they do or don't like. Obviously this isn't the dealers problem but I'm sure there are idiots who would blame them anyway!

As far as payment goes, if the dealers are worried about payment then sure, ask for Western Union transfer before shipping. If you really want the knife then you'll just have to live with the added cost. Maybe if a customer buys a few things and "proves" themselves they can pay with credit card from then on.

I don't know if it would work internationally but here in Oz you can buy things by direct bank deposit. I simply tell my bank to put money directly into the account of the person I'm buying from. That way the guy definitely gets his money and there is a traceable record of it.

You mean (international) wire transfer? That's even more expensive than WU...

 

[foxyrick]

Another vote for paypal if you don't want to take CC's. Any other payment method from the UK is too expensive, even if we are paying another European country!

I've been buying stuff (electronic components, knives, all sorts) regularly from the US for well over ten years. I've only ever had two parcels not arrive, out of many hundreds. One of those I strongly suspect was never sent, but that's another matter... There was also the guy who put it on a ship (when he asked for and I payed for airmail) - then tried to bully me into waiting three months!

I've always asked for USPS (Global Priority, 1st Class Int'l, Int'l Priority) and found it extremely reliable. I avoid sellers who insist on couriers like fedex or UPS like the plague. Way too expensive, not needed, and a pain to get the goods when I work during the day. USPS hands over to the post office or Parcel Force in the UK and the items can be picked up from the local office, unlike a courier who could be 50 miles away.

So, use Paypal if you don't trust CC's, use USPS and don't add unreasonable 'handling charges' and all should be well.

With regard to knives and customs, I have had only one knife inspected (out of several dozen). Customs don't have a problem with knives in general, although there are specific types that are not allowed and will be confiscated:

...Automatic, grivity or flick knives. (assisted openers are a grey area right now; I've
had several come in fine though)

...Balisongs

...Knives with knuckle guards or finger rings (that's why I cant have an Argonne Assault)

...Knives designed to look like something else, hiding the fact that it is a knife (note
that novelty knives that have something else attached are not necessarily included
here, like a lighter with an obvious folding blade is fine, but if the blade designed to
be completely concealed it is illegal)

...Throwing stars and some other specific martial arts weapons (swords are OK though)

...Push daggers

Rick.

Oh yeah, and another vote for the seller inspecting the goods to check that they are OK before shipping. I (nearly) always ask for this.

 

[The Deacon]

As Huugh pointed out, international wire transfers are even more expensive than WU. As for PayPal, does that really offer a seller any more protection than a CC? My impression has always been that it does not, since they can still do a charge back on the card they used to "pay" PayPal. But since I've used it more as a buyer, and any "sales" I've made that way were to people I knew and trusted, I'm not sure.

 

[huugh]

I'm not really a fan of Paypal. Apart from stories here: http://paypalsucks.com/, I really dislike the idea of giving anyone broad access to my card/account (mainly because I don't use "credit card" but debit card (CCs here are usually blocked for online shopping, don't know why...)). I believe there isn't a way how to distinguish debit and credit cards (based on numbers or something else) but anyway, it doesn't make me comfortable.

That's why I don't use Paypal. Besides, as Deacon pointed out, is it really any "safer"?

 

[Mongo-man]

I am in Belgium Europe, and i have bought almost every knife i have online. I always use my CC and Paypal. I only had problems twice , out of hundreds of transactions. Sending money to the US or anywhere else in the world is very expensive. We don't use money orders or cheques here anymore, nor are they available from the bank, everything is electronic here in Europe.
I never carry around more then 20 euro's around in cash, i only pay by debet bankcards. I can live with ease without using anything made of paper or metal here, and most of the times i do.

Regarding legality it's the buyers responsability to check local laws, not the seller.

If a knife gets confiscated by local customs it's the buyers problem.

 

[Lenny_Goofoff]

Afaik, New Graham Knives works with Russain customers for years. They ask to pay via Western Union for the first time and after that allow you to use CC. No Paypal though. Also they hand-check every knife going overseas to lessen returns.

 

[dave_last]

As for PayPal, does that really offer a seller any more protection than a CC?

The most frequent CC fraud issue is "friendly chargeback" when the credit cardholder claims unauthorized use. This is either genuine unauthorized use as with a stolen card or it is a deliberate scam by the buyer. In either case the seller to an overseas customer will inevitably lose the chargeback. Another scam is a fraudulent chargeback for "goods not as described". Once again the seller is almost guaranteed to lose.

Now most scammers will use a CC directly rather than bother using a CC with PayPal. So any PayPal order has less likelihood of fraud. Additionally as mentioned above if the buyer is Verified then it's highly unlikely he's a scammer. So although there isn't actually any extra protection that PayPal provides the odds are better. That said the UK and Canada are covered by the Seller Protection Policy.

Afaik, New Graham Knives works with Russain customers for years. They ask to pay via Western Union for the first time and after that allow you to use CC. No Paypal though.

Western Union for first order is not a bad idea.

But here's where we get to the punchline. In addition to taking PayPal Verified buyers, we will take orders from anyone, anywhere, by any payment method if they have a decent enough "footprint" (decent posts, number posts, how long they are registered etc.) on Blade Forums. Anyone who's good enough for our ever-vigilant moderators is good enough for us!!!

 

[huugh]

But here's where we get to the punchline. In addition to taking PayPal Verified buyers, we will take orders from anyone, anywhere, by any payment method if they have a decent enough "footprint" (decent posts, number posts, how long they are registered etc.) on Blade Forums. Anyone who's good enough for our ever-vigilant moderators is good enough for us!!!

That sounds like a reasonable idea :thumbup:, but I wonder how would you verify it? (the (potential) scammer can as well take any BF username and pretend to be that person...)

Maybe you could send an e-mail through BF to that user?