Internet Influence on Custom Knives?

[Kevin Jones]

Without a doubt the internet has had quite a positive influence on custom knives. Makes one wonder where we would be without it?

A recent Blade Magazine poll showed about 65% of knife sales generate from the internet and our own Blade Forums poll showed we buy about 27% of our custom knives from on-line dealers.

The internet offers worldwide exposure for makers to display their knives via photographs and has contributed significantly in educating new makers and collectors.

Obviously, the internet has helped custom knife organizations and enhanced knife related communications worldwide. The CKCA received a membership application from an individual in South Africa last night, bringing our total to being represented in 10 countries.

• However, is there potential for the internet to have a negative long term affect on the custom knife industry?

• Is it best when there’s a balance between the virtual information one receives from the internet and the actual physically handling and examining of custom knives?

The last few posts to the “Best Bowie of 2008 Poll” thread addressed the affect photography possibly had on the outcome. One has to wonder if we all had been able to handle and examine the dozens of knives that were submitted would we have still chosen the same five finalists.

The individuals I consider the “knife experts” of today, have gained most of their knowledge from seeing, handling and examining hundreds of custom knives. Will our “experts” of tomorrow have obtained most of their knowledge from this “hands on” training or more from exposure to the internet?

• Will the quality of custom knives be compromised in the future as a result of reduced “hands on” critique?

• So is the internet the future of custom knives or just another entity to combine with knife shows and the print media for promoting and providing a broad knowledge of custom knives?

Please feel few to present your views as to how and how will the internet influence the custom knife community in the future.

As always, thank you in advance for your opinions and participation.

 

[jdm61]

I wonder how much of the 65% number is made up of factory knives? Relatively speaking, it seems that the average buyer has fewer opportunities to go into a real bricks and mortar store and handle a lot of higher quality factory knives unless you live in the odd big city where you might find a gun shop, army-navy store or some similar type of business where the owner is a "knife guy". Those types of stores have never been that common. I lucked out in that when I started getting into knives in the early 90's when I was in Gainesville, there were a couple of nice ladies who ran an Army-Navy store/gunshop who had a case ffull of what at that time, were newer specialty production knives from folks like Al Mar, SOG, Ek, Pacific Cutlery/Benchmade(?) etc.
Although we sometimes say that the forums in particular and the internet in general is a small part of the custom knife world, one cannot deny that it is becoming a much larger part of it every day. It will have its growing pains. The up side is that it seems to be bringing a lot more people, both sellers/makers/manufacturers and buyers, to the knife game. Unfortunately, the point about not being able to handle the knives is not a probelm unique to the knife world. The upside AND downside may be that if someone is selling a product that is not as advertised or pictured, then there is PLENTY of opportunity on the web for an unsatisfied buyer to vent.

 

[RogerP]

• However, is there potential for the internet to have a negative long term affect on the custom knife industry?

Certainly there can be specific negatives, but I don't see the potential for an overall negative effect. None, at least that would counterbalance the overwhelming positve effect. I've been there in the days when the only way you could communicate with makers was via mail or telephone (remember send $3 for a brochure...) and while there was a certain charm to that, I don't want to go back.

• Is it best when there’s a balance between the virtual information one receives from the internet and the actual physically handling and examining of custom knives?

I don't see how it could be any other way. I don't know of anyone who thinks you can learn all there is to know about a knife from a picture alone.

The last few posts to the “Best Bowie of 2008 Poll” thread addressed the affect photography possibly had on the outcome. One has to wonder if we all had been able to handle and examine the dozens of knives that were submitted would we have still chosen the same five finalists.

The individuals I consider the “knife experts” of today, have gained most of their knowledge from seeing, handling and examining hundreds of custom knives. Will our “experts” of tomorrow have obtained most of their knowledge from this “hands on” training or more from exposure to the internet?

- A good number of the people posting on that thread I have personally met walking the floor at shows throughout the US and in Canada.

- Would the results have been different? Quite possibly.

- I don't know who decides who the "experts" are today, much less in the future. But since knives exist in three dimensions, I can't conceive of expertise being acquired through two-dimensional exposure alone.

• Will the quality of custom knives be compromised in the future as a result of reduced “hands on” critique?

I think that's stretching. Unless we all start buying and collecting photos of knives - and not the knives themselves - the quality will have to be there to keep customers coming back. News flows faster than ever now. Good news and bad.

• So is the internet the future of custom knives or just another entity to combine with knife shows and the print media for promoting and providing a broad knowledge of custom knives?

The internet is an important PART of the future of custom knives. It is not the whole.

As always, thank you in advance for your opinions and participation.

Good topic.

Roger

 

[Kevin Jones]

Certainly there can be specific negatives, but I don't see the potential for an overall negative effect. None, at least that would counterbalance the overwhelming positve effect. I've been there in the days when the only way you could communicate with makers was via mail or telephone (remember send $3 for a brochure...) and while there was a certain charm to that, I don't want to go back.

Yes, those were the days :grumpy:. Sure slowed down the progress. Not to go off topic but here's some brochures for those who were not around then. All courtesy of the Jim Treacy collection

I don't see how it could be any other way. I don't know of anyone who thinks you can learn all there is to know about a knife from a picture alone.

There's collectors and perhaps even makers (though I don't know of any) who admittedly don't go to shows, don't subscribe to knife publications and get most if not all their information from the internet. Not saying these collectors are not very knowledgeable, however they are IMO at a disadvantage.


- A good number of the people posting on that thread I have personally met walking the floor at shows throughout the US and in Canada.

As I have, however I expect of all the what 80-90 knives submitted, very few have been seen by other than the makers and owners.

- Would the results have been different? Quite possibly.

- I don't know who decides who the "experts" are today, much less in the future. But since knives exist in three dimensions, I can't conceive of expertise being acquired through two-dimensional exposure alone.

I decide who I consider the experts, as they are the folks I go to for information and advice. I of course don't try to decide for anyone else.


I think that's stretching. Unless we all start buying and collecting photos of knives - and not the knives themselves - the quality will have to be there to keep customers coming back. News flows faster than ever now. Good news and bad.



The internet is an important PART of the future of custom knives. It is not the whole.




Good topic.

I try.

Roger

*************************

 

[Kevin Jones]

I wonder how much of the 65% number is made up of factory knives? Relatively speaking, it seems that the average buyer has fewer opportunities to go into a real bricks and mortar store and handle a lot of higher quality factory knives unless you live in the odd big city where you might find a gun shop, army-navy store or some similar type of business where the owner is a "knife guy". Those types of stores have never been that common. I lucked out in that when I started getting into knives in the early 90's when I was in Gainesville, there were a couple of nice ladies who ran an Army-Navy store/gunshop who had a case ffull of what at that time, were newer specialty production knives from folks like Al Mar, SOG, Ek, Pacific Cutlery/Benchmade(?) etc.
Although we sometimes say that the forums in particular and the internet in general is a small part of the custom knife world, one cannot deny that it is becoming a much larger part of it every day. It will have its growing pains. The up side is that it seems to be bringing a lot more people, both sellers/makers/manufacturers and buyers, to the knife game. Unfortunately, the point about not being able to handle the knives is not a probelm unique to the knife world. The upside AND downside may be that if someone is selling a product that is not as advertised or pictured, then there is PLENTY of opportunity on the web for an unsatisfied buyer to vent.

Good points Joe.
I wondered myself what % was made up of factory knives. That's why I started the poll here to get an idea as to how we purchased our custom knives. Though we BF participants make up a VERY small percentage of overall custom knife buyers, I suspect the 27% from internet dealers is probably pretty close. Do you and others agree?

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=605222

 

[Lorien]

the internet's provided me with the means to amass a huge and diverse collection of knives. Virtual knives! This collection not only provides me with pleasure, but I use it to refine my tastes and become better educated.

I agree that a 'hands on' education can't be beat, but there is also little that can compare anywhere else to the diversity of images I've accumulated.

If anything, I think the positive impact of the internet centers around exposure. If one has developed an interest in custom knives, then what are the chances one would attend a knife show, and further, know in advance who they would like to meet, if they haven't spent some time gaining that knowledge previously? This site, and the internet in general is great for that.

I have almost zero desire to own practically 99% of the knives I have accumulated pictures of, but there is no downside to having them that I can think of. I really don't want to physically own a large inventory of knives, and some of the more ornate ones I like I could never afford, or are simply not available.

If it weren't for the internet, I probably wouldn't have developed much of an interest in knives again in any event.

As opposed to print media, there is no ulterior motive here in the internet. We don't have articles written by experts, who may have something to sell, whose experience is backed up by being a 'writer'. We don't have advertisements shaping our tastes and expectations. We are all more freely able to accept or reject others' point of view, and to express our own and find out whether our opinions and ideas have flaws, (a big one for me, which is why I put my opinion on the line so frequently) in order to grow and gain knowledge.

I'm still a little groggy this morning, but this is really a good topic, and my stream of consciousness will not let me keep my fingers from the keyboard.

 

[jjtjr]

Yes, those were the days :grumpy:. Sure slowed down the progress. Not to go off topic but here's some brochures for those who were not around then. All courtesy of the Jim Treacy collection

Kevin,

I own the brochure. I wish that I owned all of the Fisk knives in it.

The Internet is certainly quicker than the old days when you sent for a maker's brochure and then ordered a knife from it.

I think that nothing is more important than actually handling a knife. I have seen pictures of knives that I thought were nothing special, only to change my mind when I got to see the knife in person and vice-versa.

The Internet exposes many more people to custom knives than by mail or attending knife shows. Through the various forums it also gives people an easy way to meet and correspond with other people who share the hobby.

I don't see many negative effects to the Internet.

Jim Treacy

 

[Don Hanson III]

The internet has been huge in the recent history of custom knives.

It's a positive thing!

 

[betzner]

It's hard to add to the above, because I agree with it all.

But to elaborate on one point in particular, we all know that there is no substitute for the actual handling of a knife. I don't mean to connote that it's a downside to sales on the internet - just simply that a final in-hand inspection will never take the place of any virtual method of display, no matter how good - unless science duplicates the human body and brain.

 

[ddd]

One thing I know for sure - I would have never ever dared to even think
of creating my books on Modern Custom Knives without modern Internet
capabilities.....

Once I realized in 2001 that the Internet was progressing the way it was,
I decided to jump in and go for it!

Could never have done it otherwise. Living 8,000 miles from where
it is all happening is really too great a distance to create such complicated
visual projects other then by using the Internet as a guide.

All the best,
David Darom (ddd)

 

[Keith Montgomery]

• Is there potential for the internet to have a negative long term affect on the custom knife industry?

There are a couple of negatives that I can think of. First, there are going to be cases (this has happened already) where collectors will purchase knives based on the photos seen on the internet and will find faults that would have been discovered if they had handled the knife in the first place. Second, the internet provides an easy way for makers to present their products to potential customers. For the most part this is good, but it can provide a venue for people that shouldn't be in the knifemaking business.


• Is it best when there’s a balance between the virtual information one receives from the internet and the actual physically handling and examining of custom knives?

The last few posts to the “Best Bowie of 2008 Poll” thread addressed the affect photography possibly had on the outcome. One has to wonder if we all had been able to handle and examine the dozens of knives that were submitted would we have still chosen the same five finalists.

The individuals I consider the “knife experts” of today, have gained most of their knowledge from seeing, handling and examining hundreds of custom knives. Will our “experts” of tomorrow have obtained most of their knowledge from this “hands on” training or more from exposure to the internet?

It is always best to be able to examine the work of makers that you are interested in purchasing from, but that is not always an easy thing to do. Even if I go to Blade and check out knives, the maker I am interested in may not be there, or he/she may be sold out before I get to the table. What if I checked out a maker's knives a couple of years ago, but in the meantime his/her work has improved greatly. If you can get to the major shows every year, then you can keep up on stuff, but if not it is the internet that is going to keep you up on what a maker is doing at the time you are looking to make a purchase.

• Will the quality of custom knives be compromised in the future as a result of reduced “hands on” critique?

Most makers hang around other makers and get critique from them. Finding out what collectors think of your knives is a good thing for makers, but I don't think the internet is going to lead to a reduction in the quality of custom knives.

• So is the internet the future of custom knives or just another entity to combine with knife shows and the print media for promoting and providing a broad knowledge of custom knives?

It will be a major part of the future of custom knives. It will be a major part of the future of all marketing. Shows will continue. So will hammer-ins and symposiums. There will continue to be books and magazines. Those media will continue to be important, but the internet will become a larger and larger factor in the promotion of custom knives in the future.

Overall, the internet is a good thing for the custom knife market, but it's not perfect. It's always best to get hands on experience.

 

[Kevin Jones]

If anything, I think the positive impact of the internet centers around exposure. If one has developed an interest in custom knives, then what are the chances one would attend a knife show, and further, know in advance who they would like to meet, if they haven't spent some time gaining that knowledge previously? This site, and the internet in general is great for that.

Actually a good chance, as in spite of what you youngsters may think there were successful knife shows, gun shows, car shows and actually all kinds of things going on before the internet. Boy, do I sound like an “old geasser” or what?

 

[Lorien]

sorry I didn't make myself clear, but that's what I meant Kevin- that access through the internet to this interest would make more people interested in checking out a show, and seeing the knives for real.

 

[jdm61]

Actually a good chance, as in spite of what you youngsters may think there were successful knife shows, gun shows, car shows and actually all kinds of things going on before the internet. Boy, do I sound like an “old geasser” or what?

But you have to admit that a number of the gunshows went "downmarket' long before the internet became king. I saw it as early as the mid '90's. They didn't get smaller per se......just cheesier. Lots more people selling 18 flavors of jerky and Fury knives.:barf: Fortunately, knife shows haven't gone that way so much.

 

[Kevin Jones]

But you have to admit that a number of the gunshows went "downmarket' long before the internet became king. I saw it as early as the mid '90's. They didn't get smaller per se......just cheesier. Lots more people selling 18 flavors of jerky and Fury knives.:barf: Fortunately, knife shows haven't gone that way so much.

Gun Shows true, but knife shows and classic car shows/auctions thrived as they do now. Enthusiast always new when and where they were and most times who and what was showing up.
I would imagine the big difference now is it's much easier for the promoters than is was pre-internet.

 

[Marcel54]

Internet gave and gives me entrance to "all" the makers (at least the ones with a website) in the world and made it possible for me to develop a taste (preferences). That said nothing can beat a show in regards to meeting people and most of all examining the knives. I learned more about fit and finish in a couple of days (when I started visiting shows) then in all my reading and watching at pics behind my computer.

Marcel

 

[Jos]

One thing is for sure, without the internet my collection would not be what it is now. 95% of my factory knives are purchased on the internet, 75% of my custom knives are purchased on the internet. The other 25% of the custom knives are purchased on knifeshows. But before the internet I didn't even know there were knife shows!

Kind regards,

Jos

 

[peterinct]

A lot of good points and I also agree with essentially everything stated.

In my experience, I would NOT hesitate to purchase a known knife on the internet but anything else, I have learned by going to shows, that I would NOT buy a custom without handling it.

By a "known knife" I mean a production knife such as a Spyderco, etc. or a makers knife that I an familiar with his/her work.

I think I stated in my selections for Bowie of 2008, that my choices would perhaps be different if I had the opportunity to hold the choices.

I have been surprised many times by being attracted to a knife on a table, but after holding it, would NOT want to own it.

For me, holding a custom knife before purchase is key.

Peter

 

[NickWheeler]

I'd pretty much just like to echo Roger's post. I think it's a great topic Kevin :thumbup:

It seems to me that it will have a long term negative effect on shows, but I think that's just the nature of the beast. For a lot of folks like Keith and Roger, they have to shell out a significant amount of $$$ just to GET TO the show, let alone buy anything and they're just north of us... you get guys like Stephen that are across the ocean, and it's an even bigger hurdle getting to a show.

With that in mind, and the fact that a knife purchase could be just a few clicks away, it's hard for me to imagine folks not taking full advantage of purchasing online.

However, I still think the human element is a HUGE part of the craft, and if you guys enjoy meeting us makers and hanging out at shows half as much as I enjoy it... then it will certainly remain a key part of knife collecting (I HOPE ).

For me personally, I really came into this at a time when makers could be an "overnight" sensation because of the internet. While I have been doing this stuff for quite some time, it's a drop in the bucket compared to many makers who spent a couple/few decades going to shows, advertising in magazines, mailing out brochures, and selling knives through dealers in order to build the kind of backlog that I did in a relatively short time.

On the other hand, I also think it's much faster for the "overnight sensations" to fall off the face of the earth overnight.

The only dealer that ever sold knives directly from me was Dan O'Malley at BladeGallery, and I think he did a tremendous job in getting my name out.

If I could make enough knives, I think I could enjoy more press by working with Les Robertson, but I (as everyone here knows) haven't been able to keep up with the orders I took as is, so getting into it deeper wouldn't help anybody.

I WISH I could, as someone like Les could get my knives in front of folks in places I just cant get to... there again... the human element coming into play... That chance to actually pick up a knife, roll it around in your hand, look it over for symmetry, fit, and finish...

Because like we discussed on the thread and email, a photograph can be misleading.... sometimes in favor of the maker, sometimes not.

I think in the long run the internet is only going to be an overwhelming boost for the entire knifemaking and collecting community.

 

[NickWheeler]

I forgot... that Fisk brochure is awesome!!!

I hope it's not innappropiate to ask, but what would that $595 10" Carbon steel, Southern Bowie be worth nowadays? $2500?