Interupted quench with Tough Quench.

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Nov 16, 2005
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Guys,

what are the signs that your knife is at 400 deg. with Tough Quench oil?
I know it suppose to smoke but not to flash. But since Tough Quench is less prone to flashing what are good signs for Tough Quench that you are around 400 degrees?

Thanks,
Alex
 
As with most quench oils, you do NOT want two things!
You don't want the knife to IMMEDIATELy go bone dry upon removal from the quench! If you take it out and the blade steel instantly vaporizes the oil on it, it's too hot.
Conversely, if you remove it and it stays all wet, you've left it in a little long and it may be too cool bringing the martensite transformation to an abrupt halt.
You want a little of everything - a little smoke, a few wet splotchy areas, some areas that hold the oil/wet, and some areas that vaporize the oil and are dry.
Depending on a few variables I find that little window is 6, 7, 8 seconds or so. Keep that blade moving during the quench!
 
Is there any way to measure temperature more accurately that by looking.
Is there any temperature probes that are relatively cheap?
 
Is there any way to measure temperature more accurately that by looking.
Is there any temperature probes that are relatively cheap?
I use a laser non-contact thermometer - which ain't cheap! Mine goes up to 2000 degrees F.
I have no idea how your blade will look. My guess is that it won't make any difference to the oil what you have on it.
Use some mild steel approximately the same thickness as your finished blades and run some experiments first.
 
This might sound stupid, but welding supply houses have temp. sticks--they melt on contact at a specified temperature. Very low tech., but pretty accurate. I have used them when pre-heating cast iron items prior to arc welding. I think that there are a wide range of temperature sticks available. 47 Knuckle
 
get an inexpensive non-contact pyrometer at HF(laser thermometer).Mount it to a support of some sort so it points sideways about 6-8" above the quench tank. Quench the blade, lift it out of the tank into the laser beam. This should be fast and easy.
Stacy
 
Gonna have to experiment with it...


The above advice is spot on.


I dunk mine, count to 7 - while agitating to-n-fro....then pull it out. Usually puts out a huge cloud of smoke, but does not ignite. If it does ignite, I put it back in quickly and pull it back out. That's usually enough. I haven't had problems with it from the igniting.

The difficulty comes when edge quenching...harder to tell...but in a way, easier to see.


If you are using PBC...the blade should be black coming out of the quenchant. If everything is set right, sometimes the PBC will pop off in the quench. Lately (and it may be because my oil is quite old)...mine has not been popping off. Instead I dip it in a container of warm water (quick in-n-out) which pops it right off. I don't do this with 1095...only with O1. (you didn't specify which steel).
 
I side very much with Dan Koster on this subject. It is a good idea, I believe, to first determine the optimum quenchant temperature and time in quench without interrupted quench being used. Upon determining that begin experimenting on your interrupts. It takes many many hours and days upon days and thickness of blades complicate it even more. It is more of a matter of experience than electronic temperature reading of blade out of quench. ALWAYS keep detailed notes.

Tough Quench is great. I love it bunches. It is different though compared to the run of the mill home brew or vegi oil quenches. I have not had good luck interrupting Tough Quench; probably just me and lack of dedication to persisting with it. I might suggest this though. If using Tough Quench and looking for smoke on the interrupt I would guess you are way too early on pulling the blade. Vegi oil yes, Tough Quench no. Also your Quenchant temperature is very important too and you must determine that.

All HT requires great patience.

rlinger
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I assume that anybody interrupting a quench is attempting to approximate the martempering operation, otherwise there is little other advantage. To do this you want to get as close to Ms (martensite start) as possible without dipping too far below it. If you interrupt too hot you will risk forming some upper bainite. I am not as giddy as many about lower bainite but just about everybody that knows about the stuff would like to avoid upper bainite in blades.

The danger of interrupting too low is dipping into martensite with very thin areas like the edge and then arresting the cooling of the hot spine and risk bleeding the heat back into the edge and thus over-temepering that fresh martensite. I have also heard of folks doing all kinds of "creative" things to slow the cooling hoping to get the elusive uber-blade made of unobtanium, this will also flirt with the same problem, but even more so. This issue would be more likely with faster oils that have the ability to produce wider gradients in temperature of the blade. Just air cool and leave the cooling process alone, because another thing that can result from messing with the continuous cool is the stabalization of austenite, and then you will be doing things like freezing your simple steel blades just to reach full hardness.

I have not worked much with tough-quench but the oils I have worked with often take around a 7 count to get in the neighborhood. NEVER compare times of real quenchants and vegi oils or automotive products, since real quench oils are designed with a different curve and will cool very fast in the first couple of seconds and then slow down in the last part of the quench. Parks AAA will hover around 800-500F for a surprisingly long time and #50 does much the same.

Make a practice blade if you need to and then quench it and count off the time. If done right the blade sould be albe to be held with new welding gloves without real pain. The blade should be coated with oil with some light vapors coming off from it, due to the fact that most oils have a vapor point that coincides nicely with the temperature range we are looking for. You can also check it with a magnet, as the test blade approaches 40% martensite the magnet will start sticking better. Also bend the blade and straighten it a bit. Meta-stable austenite is very moveable, but martensite definitely is not, with practice the blades resitance to deformation will be able to tell you how far the hardening has progressed.

All of this is one of the reasons I always have students play around a bit with the blades after interrupting at Ms. It not only helps them get a handle on this process but it definitely drives home a very memorable way what is happening inside the blade. One of my favorite tricks to pull to this day is to help a student quench a blade they are particularly proud of and snatch it out of the quench at 450F. and ask them if it looks straight before bending it and then handing it back them and saying "Good, you have about 3 minutes to get it back that way!" :D The next time I talk to them they are a true believer in the underlying process' I described and the lessons seem to stick with them for a longer time than most.;)
 
Kevin,

I also remember reading that ToughQuench has much slower cooling rate after blade reaches Ms temperature. In this case may be it's not worth risking doing interrupted quench since ToughQuench already provides some benefits of martempering?
What do you think about risk of interrupted quench vs. benefits of martempering? I spend lot's of time grinding and don't really want to screw things up while heat treating.
BTW If I did screw up, can O-1 blade be HTed again with no adverse effect to the blade? Will I have to anneal it?

Thanks,
Alex
 
If the HT is not right in an O-1 blade, just normalize it and then re-do the HT. It will not cause any harm.
Stacy
 
I found specs for Tough Quench:
SPECS: 1 qt. (16 fl. oz./946 ml), 1 gal. (128 fl. oz./3.8 L) in cans. Flash point is 355° F. (179.4° C.); Fire point is 410° F. (210° C.).


I thought flash point is when oil gets on fire, but since there is a "Fire point" what is a "flash point"?

 
Guys, never mind my last question. I found the description -
The flash point of a flammable liquid is the lowest temperature at which it can form an ignitable mixture in air. At this temperature the vapor may cease to burn when the source of ignition is removed. A slightly higher temperature, the fire point, is defined as the temperature at which the vapor continues to burn after being ignited.
 
Kevin, your post is a great read. Using Tough Quench for my 1/4 inch 1075 WSK blades I have found I do best with a quench pre-heat of about 131 F. and a quench of 2 minutes in duration. This is using almost 2 gallons of Tough Quench. The same blade made of 01 steel I have found a quench duration of 1 1/2 minute best. I do not do interrupted quenches on these blades. These are big heavy blades but still it did fascinate me that I had to kick the quench pre-heat up so high and quench so long. It took me several days to find it.

I trust I have not strayed far from thread topic since I did keep to the subject of Tough Quench.

rlinger
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Tough Quench instruction specifically says "do not preheat"
I only heat it up to "room temperature"
 
Oops, I realized a possible misscommunication in my last post. Do not get into the habit of bending your perfectly straight blades just to see if they are at Ms. One of the benefits of marquenching (and thus of timed or interrupted quenches), is the ability to check for straightness and then use gloved hands to guide any warpage back straight as it arises. As you do this you will feel the blade gain resitance to moving as it hardens. If you get a blade that stays straight without you messing around with it, be happy and leave it alone! But take a practice blade and practice straightening things and getting the feel of the process.
 
Oops, I realized a possible misscommunication in my last post. Do not get into the habit of bending your perfectly straight blades just to see if they are at Ms. One of the benefits of marquenching (and thus of timed or interrupted quenches), is the ability to check for straightness and then use gloved hands to guide any warpage back straight as it arises. As you do this you will feel the blade gain resitance to moving as it hardens. If you get a blade that stays straight without you messing around with it, be happy and leave it alone! But take a practice blade and practice straightening things and getting the feel of the process.


Now you tell me!!!
I quenched three blades to see how far I could bend them and get them back straight! Now I have three horse shoes!
(Just kidding.)
 
I tried interrupted quench today for my O-1 blade. I counted to 6 and pulled the blade out. There were some white smoke but not too much. I then let the blade cool to temperature that is still too hot to hold it with bare hand for more than 3 sec., before I put it into boiling water to remove PBC and then while it was pretty hot put it into tempering oven.
I know I suppose to let it cool to 130F which is when you can hold it without discomfort.
The reason I did it, was that been a full integral knife, tip of the blade was getting probably colder than 130F while closer to the handle(where there are a lot of metal mass) it still uncomfortable to hold.

1. Is it screwed by not letting cool to 130F before tempering?
2. Is it any way to test the blade without destroying it?
3. If I need to redo HT do I need to normalize it first?
 
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