Introduction

timos-

timos-

Joined
Oct 22, 2012
Messages
2,213
Hello all,

Ive been perusing these forums for several months now. Thought it was time to introduce myself, give a little background and ask a few burning questions :).

I got my start with knife making when I was about 12 back in 1994-95ish. My family had just moved into a new neighborhood and our closest neighbor was a locksmith and had a garage full of all the coolest stuff I had ever seen. My 2 brothers and I ended up spending 1 night a week learning to build our own knife. I was completely hooked and immersed myself with Ken Warner Knives books , Blade magazine, and my father even took me to a few shows. I met a bunch of makers back then and received alot of help and advice. I had grand dreams of becoming a full time knife maker. I included a few shots of some kind of crude knives I had made in my application portfolio at Rochester Institute Tech. I got accepted in the metal work and jewelry design major! Long story short, after one school year of foundation art classes I decided Id rather make some money in a machine shop and pick up on my knife aspirations at a later date. So about 12 years later here I am.

Its great to see the friendly and helpful handmade knife culture is alive and very well. Its everything I remember from those knife shows back in the day and more. Im glad to be a part of this forum and looking forward to sharing more of our shared passions.

Id like to keep making knives, lots of em, but I cant unless I sell a few. You all know what type of costs are involved with setting up a small shop and finishing out a batch of 30-40 blades. I took the plunge and now I'm getting ready to see a return. Ive talked with a dealer, and done hours of research. I actually came away from the last knife show I went to with more confidence after comparing the symmetry of my blades to some others very high priced knives. Here at blade forums though , is the cream of the crop and some of the very best craftsmen and women of the day. Now for some of these burning questions. Ive been watching the marketplace here and other sites very closely. Id like to here every ones thoughts on what they think my work is worth; a sort of peer review with an opinion on monetary value. I don't want to undercut anyone. I know a thing or two about paying bills and I am aware of the dilemma of the full timer vs the hobbyist. So Is this good idea or bad?

respectfully,
 
My advice would be to take one of those knives, figure out how long it took you to make and a hypothetical hourly rate. Add the labor cost to the cost of materials, add the value of a sheath if you provide one, throw in a bit for the time it took you for design and even the time it takes to photograph and post it for sale, and see what figure you come up with.
A typical basic knife with guard for me: 12 hrs. labor at $15/hr. or $180, $10 belts and sandpaper, $5 propane, $5 shop etc.'s, $15 G10, $10 stainless and solder, $5 wear and tear (bandsaw blades, bits, etc.) $10 52100 steel, $5 corbys, $12 insured shipping. That adds up to $255. A sheath for $30 value brings it up to $285. (My point, don't forget to add the incidentals... you DO have to keep paying for this stuff.)
Depending on the knife, it might take a while to sell at that price. In the past, as a newer maker, I'd often bring something like that down to $250 even to speed the sale, or it would take forever. Now, I'm competing with newer guys doing that, I'm charging sometimes a bit more than the basic price from cost breakdown, and they move OK. Sometimes a well done integral will bring in a nice bonus over your cost by numbers. When I make more for a knife, I consider it an hourly raise... past overdue.

What is your immediate reaction to your added cost on your knife? Way too high? Or do you think you could get more? If you feel it's warranted, adjust the figure a bit, then post that knife for sale in "fixed blades." If it gets snapped right up, maybe you can get more for the next one. If it takes forever to sell, maybe the price was a bit high. It will take experimentation over the course of several knives to get a good idea of where you are in the market, which might be lower than you'd like as a very new name.

Sometimes a really nice knife with good pictures can speak for itself, big name or no.

You can certainly post pix here for feedback, I don't know if I'd be comfortable assigning monetary values, or if that's really correct for this forum... good luck to you!
 
Hey thanks guys, I will post an example of my work later on. Wasnt sure if it would be appropriate to post a pic asking what people think its worth.
 
To further elucidate, the knife in the example above, at $285 total with hourly at $15/hr, could be price adjusted as follows:
New to the scene, apprentice/hobby level, adjust hourly down to $10/hr. That's just above minimum wage here. That would bring the price down $60 to $225 total.
$15/hr is barely a living wage in WA, especially since cost of living is much higher in the more urban areas. I have to live in the middle of nowhere to make a living on knives.
After several years, when your knives are awesome and people know who you are, try bringing your hourly up to $20/hr, which would inflate the price of that knife to $345. If they sell at that price, congrats, you earned a raise. Took a while, didn't it?

I used to be a union apprentice pipefitter. After four years as an apprentice, you're making $20/hr or more, with righteous healthcare that covers your spouse too, and when you "top out" as a journeyman, it's around $30/hr. And a lot of those journeymen lived check to check. Kids, house, etc.

And, speaking of inflation, minimum wage here has gone up almost $3/hr since I started making knives... don't forget to raise your prices with time. It's a mad, mad world out there, don't contribute to the madness by undervaluing your time and skill as an American artisan.
 
First knife is AEB-L .110 thick
Heat treated by Peters in PA, to RC of 60

blue and yellow g10 liners (swedish colors)
Stabilized Birch handle

304 SS pins with West systems clear hardener + resin





I do have a formula for working out all of my costs. Now this is a knife meant to be used and I am not planning on spending the time sanding out every little mark. It is difficult for me to be satisfied with the fit and finish. Professionally I am a machinist working with + - .005 tolerances on a CNC so ya know... Im not getting even close to that with freehand tools:) But structurally and design wise I feel this will filet many a many bluefish and striper. Is it reasonable to expect a knife like this to be in the 100-150 range?

This knife below has been fun, and I actually strayed from the original design quite a bit.
Steel is 1095 at .140 thick
HT by Peters to 58 RC.
I needed to leave the edge rather thick due to the faster oil quench so I still have to do some finish grinding.
The handle was actually a piece of oosik Mark Knapp graciously offered to whoever could guess a fly pattern he had tied.
I split it sanded it and filled in the voids with the West systems epoxy. Had some trouble drilling the material for the Naval Brass pins so I had to fudge the holes up a bit to make it work , thats why there are some glue seams visible. Next time I would probably do a closer fit and peen them before glue up.
Now with 1095 even though it is cheaper than other steels it required more finish work and cleanup time. Actually doubled the time of work over the Stainless.
Id chalk my extra time up to the ole learning curve and also consider this knife to be in the 100 to 150 range.



 
I suggest that you make your "built in" guard longer on the fish knife and design one into the second knife or of course use a separate piece of metal. On pricing, from what you have said, your work may require more finishing to create an interest to purchase at those prices.On hand made knives this is the often the first requirement. That does not mean however that the blade must have a mirror finish. Often, time involved accounts for very little in the pricing if the finishing looks poor. Frank
 
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Now this is a knife meant to be used and I am not planning on spending the time sanding out every little mark.
Click to expand...
This is not something you want to be thinking on handmade knives over $100. Attention to detail is one of the reasons a person would pay for handmade.
I too, think you may want to spend a little more time cleaning up your finishes. The designs don't look too bad though.
 
Thank you both for the input. I greatly appreciate it! Its kinda the kick I need to slow down a bit and spend the necessary time on the details.

As for price points, Salem Ive taken what you were talking about and modified it a bit. Basically what I have is a basic cost of steel/inch this is the determining modifier on several categories: Abrasives , Epoxy/Fasteners, and Heat Treat. Then I add cost of handle. To this I add a % based on shipping & handling/ cost of electricity/ wear and tear , etc. To achieve the final price I am thinking of offering 3 grades of finishes. Economy, Field, and Presentation. These 3 Grades will take the place of an hourly labor rate. I don't like the idea of an hourly rate mainly just because of the way I personally work.

Here is a couple more pics you can see I still have a lot of finish work to do.



The lighting is bad and you cant see the grind lines to good but this has to be one of my favorite overall profiles. I feel like its an interesting blend of many different aesthetic styles. Functionally it is meant as a stout filet/bait knife. Will be testing it out in Cape Cod all summer.
 
I'm sure Salem will agree you have some good work and styling in those knives. They also look original. I feel having a guard on them will help your sales but am not convinced that the three grades will help. Confusion over is this one of his or is that I believe will I tend to cause a problem. My suggestion is to do your best work all the time. It will help you sell and to increase your prices as you go along. To see some of my work please go to customknifegallery. Frank
 
I do agree that there is good work and styling here. Even the idea of three grades might work- you'll just have to try and see how that goes if that's what you want to do. Frank is right, do your best work all the time. If anything, let the difference in the three grades be in materials and design. A small utility with a micarta handle and no guard is on the economy side, but should be as well finished as your burl or ivory handle, damascus or S35VN blade with a guard and buttcap, which would be on the luxury end of the price range.

Thanks for not taking offense, you have a good attitude about this and I think you'll do all right.
 
Frank, your work is extraordinary! That is a good motto: do your best work all of the time. By a guard do you mean a fitted guard material or are you suggesting an actual change in the shape of the guard area? I do actually have some blades with guards I am fitting but I have done the glue up on the ones without first.
Salem, Congrats on the article in the paper that's a great writeup. I am seeing what you gentlemen mean about the 3 different grades. Economy grade would be a G10 guard less handle perhaps with a belt finish on the blade. Field Grade would be a hand rubbed 6 or 800 satin finish. Where as presentation would be mirror finished. I myself would not want to pay someone extra many for a hand rubbed finish on a utility blade for work. In fact the bulk of testing Ive done has been at work beating the heck out of the thing, Id expect a customer to do the same. Why pay extra for finish quality when all you want is the qualities of cutting with a specific type of steel?

Really thank you both for helping me figure this stuff out for myself.
 
That's right, belt finish is good for utility grade, takes a bit less time, and can look very nice. It's nice that mirror would be presentation grade- that way you won't have to do it very often. Personally, I think it's a pain in the butt and not too suitable for a hard using knife.
 
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