Invent a Better Trainer!

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PROTECTOR

Joined
Jan 1, 2000
Messages
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This is prompted by the NHB fighter versus the knife thread. In this thread the NHB fighters take on an FMA knifer armed with a magic marker and claim victory, even though they are covered with ink!

These forums definitely contain guys a lot smarter than me (not all that hard really), with way too much free time on their hands. How about you guys come up with a better trainer? Something that combines an adjustable current stun gun with a knife shape. It needs to be adjustable, so when you work with guys who don't want to admit a knife can be dangerous you can set it on "Fry"! Something that needs a certain amount of cutting or stabbing pressure to activate the current. This would be incredibly educational for knife sparring and empty hand versus knife.
 
Kevin "Mad Dog" McClung made an "Electric Knife" for Training Purposes, the only problem with the concept is, Protector, is that alot of cuts and thrusts, per Survivors, are not felt. Then we would have a valid critique of that as well.

I think that serious people, like you and I...and many others, just need to rest with confidence in the fact that what these guys are doing is not real.
 
How about a low-tech solution? Get the NHB guy to go all out against a FMA with "just" an impact tool like a kubotan/DTL Kerambit/JSP palm stick/etc. With these or similar "force multipliers" at his/her disposal, my money would be on the FMA.

I don't think the NHB guy realizes the advantage that weapons bring to the table, edged or otherwise.
 
This trend in Combatives is a direct result of a combination of many years of relative Peace and incredibly high-tech weaponry.

There have been many Threads regarding NHB Fighters and they are incredible people.

That does not make it real.

Time and time again, it has been stated. There are techniques that are banned in these competitions. One of the prime techs are attacks on the eyes.

Every last one of you know in your own mind, if you know it is for real and you are down on the ground, however you got there is not important...you know you are going to put their eye out. If you don't know that, then God help you in the real world.

You will gouge someone in the eye, hit them in the throat, you will stomp the back of their head, you will bite chunks out of them. If you are not willing to go all the way, then you will always be a target and potential victim of someone else who is more than willing to go all the way. This is about survival, it is about Self-preservation. It is not about arrogance, ego and titles or anything like that.

The two worlds can exist, of course, but one parading as the other and in so doing, bending reality, is absurd to me.

No one in here is taking anything away from NHB Fighters, they are an incredible group of people, they are technicians.

That ring that they fight in, again, is not concrete, blacktop, no broken glass, no vehicles...it has little to do with the Real World.

What are we all about? The whole NHB thing is about a single, unarmed attacker, he has no friends, no weapons, the "ground" is not real, there are prohibitions about executing some of the most effective Self-preservation techniques that exist, so how is it in any way, "real?"

I understand why people want to have exchanges, you learn things that way. You grow. However, there comes a time when the reality of it all should settle on your shoulders and you should simply say, "this has been interesting, but, I'm out of here."

Don't get too worked up over it, because it is not reality anyway. I'm not saying that to be flip or nasty to them, I respect them.
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I love NHB/submission fighting, but it is still a sport. For skill development and practical H2H skills, I place these simple , powerful, gross motorskills at the top of the heap.

I think some people have a difficult time distinguishing between traditional martial arts, modern arts, prize fighting, self-defense and street survival/personal safety. None of these are mutually exclusive, but there are differences that matter if your goal is to protect yourself on the street.

Not understanding the differences gets some people "bent out of shape" when they believe that their "art" is being maligned.

Shooting 1500 in a PPC course of fire is amazing marksmanship, but it doesn't mean that it will guarantee your success in a gunfight, nor does winning a Steel Challenge title. Great feats of skill at arms for sure, but alone, not enough to survive on the street. Add tactical knowledge and understanding, and you start to get closer to reality.

I could discuss mindset, fighting spirit, etc., but I think you get the basic idea. Learn from everyone you come into contact with. Everyone has something to offer, even if it's what NOT to do.
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Train tactically. Prepare for the worst, and hope for the best.

Stay safe,


Steve

(Don, you teaching yet?)
 
Steve, that's going to be awhile from now, I need a couple more things in my head to make me happy.
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Check your mail. Good post.
 
Steve22595: The NHB guy clearly stated that he trains for SPORT in the ring.

The problem is that some of these guys are so big and powerful that they can often make sport techniques work in a street fight. Even a WWF wrestler, an entertainer, could charge in, pick up, and piledrive or bodyslam an average adult male into the pavement before he had much of a chance to do anything about it. He might very well kill the smaller guy right then and there with a "sport" technique. You aren't going to get a chance to apply much "technique" against someone that is that powerful. (That is why man invented weapons.) NHB fighting is NOT always ground grappling either, though it can be. Something to think about.

Frankly, when you start adding in factors like mindset and fighting spirit into the street fight equation, I'd put my money on most professional hockey or rugby players over 99% of the black belts and other "experts" out there. JRF.




[This message has been edited by jrf (edited 01-12-2001).]
 
I have issues with unprovable techniques. I can SAY I'd gouge an eye, but I work with sport jujutsu people (one step removed from NHB), and one could easily be taken down & put in a position where you CAN'T get an eye gouge. All in <1 second. We've played with it - "OK, try it". "nuts. I can't reach, and my arm's pinned, and..."

If I get a cut on the way in, that's another matter.

Also, this whole thing came from ONE FMA school & ONE NHB school. Way too small a sample for anyone to be drawing sweeping conclusions.

About a better trainer - I just got one (with another coming) stun gun just for this purpose. They're the smallest I could find in size, so they're also weak - 80kV-100kV. But I'm not looking to fry anyone; just to point out "OK, THAT would have been a cut"

But I'm not sure of the best way to do this - a sheath for the gun with plastic "blade" containing wires? Remove the electronics & start from scratch?

If there are any engineering types on the list, I'd love some ideas.
 
jrf,

I guess I'm lucky that I'm not an "average adult male"
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I coudn't agree more about the hockey, rugby, football, and NHB/MMA guys. The difference in their training that some martial artists neglect is CONTACT. Real contact. Just like most things, experience with anything mitigates the fear factor and raises confidence.
 
Aluminum training knives are great training devices. If a 225 pound training partner puts one into your ribs with some gusto, you are going to hurt for a few days. You will not stick your leg out for a sweep without making the decision that what you are doing better be worth the divot your likely to get on your shin bone if the technique does not succeed.

But the best training device is still the mind, and your mind should tell you that the strike you just took from a 6" training knife that hurts like hell would have gone half way through your forearm if it were sharp. Anybody who thinks he can just take the cuts is not facing facts.

 
Steve22595: I agree completely with your last post. Contact and resistance are what separate fantasy from reality.

Steve Harvey: Numerous people have been cut SEVERELY and continued fighting, often without even realizing they had been cut. This is not a matter of opinion, it is a simple FACT. It occurs when someone is pumped up on adrenaline and does not feel the cuts until later when he comes down from that "high." Unless he is instantly incapacitated, the fighter can still do lethal damage before either "expiring" (I love that word) or seeking medical care. I, for one, certainly would not advocate anyone trying to trade cuts with an opponent.

JESTRE7: I agree with you.

Knives are formidable weapons. Like all weapons, however, they have both strengths and weaknesses. It behooves us all to understand both very well. JRF.



[This message has been edited by jrf (edited 01-12-2001).]
 
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