Iron Kiss 50 power hammer

strahd71

strahd71

Joined
Jan 26, 2006
Messages
784
was just looking at the Iron Kiss web site and saw that they have a new model the 50. its $3800

anyone have any thoughts?

thanks

jake
 
I have loads of thoughts on them! :)

John Larson (Mr. Iron Kiss) is a friend of mine. I haven't been able to run one of the 50lb hammers yet, but I intend to fix that within the next month or so. I'll be able to give a full report at that point, but there are a few things that I think you should know about his hammers as compared to others you may have seen.

  1. Pay close attention to anvil:ram ratios. You'll notice that the 50lb Iron Kiss has a 25:1 anvil:ram ratio. This is one of the most important factors in effective forging. If you don't have enough anvil mass, you end up just wasting energy with machine bounce.
  2. Iron Kiss is a one-man shop, and John is one of the most meticulous guys I've ever met. This means no QC problems of staff letting something slide one day, etc. John personally tests and tunes each hammer.
  3. No special foundation needed. Set it on a piece of 1/2" plywood if you have a concrete floor and you're done! Heck, most of the use I've had of John's hammers were at hammer-ins, etc where they were placed on a wooden box sunk 4" into dirt (mud in one case) and they have always worked really well even in those sub-optimal conditions.
  4. Just about every part on the Iron Kiss is machined to a precision fit. You really notice this precision when you use the machine. Things are tight and orderly, there's no rattles or "off" sounds, and the control achieved in forging speaks for his workmanship and attention to detail.
  5. The 50lb hammer will run at a 100% duty cycle with a 5HP 2-stage air compressor.
  6. They look like a battleship...how freakin' cool is THAT?
  7. All of the pneumatic components are stock Norgren parts. This means that if anything goes wrong, you likely have a local distributor of any part you need.
  8. The octagon guide setup allows for dies to be repositioned for righties or southpaws. Additionally, the guide system John uses allows for excellent rigidity of the tup which means more precise forging. He also utilizes a special connector between the cylinder and the tup that reduces wear on the cylinder which translates into longer cylinder life.
  9. Maintenance is pretty much as easy as keeping oil in the oiler and keeping your dies dressed.
  10. Pound per pound, they're cheaper than almost any other hammer on the market at less than $2.50 per pound of machine weight. that's half the price per pound of what you pay for knife steel!

John has also recently started a blog on his daily work in the shop and generally what he's up to over at IFI. If you really want to see what's under the hood, read his daily narrations on building his hammers.

I personally think that the 50 and 75lb hammers are an absolute steal. I'm working on saving my pennies for one of his larger hammers, but then again I've been working 16lb billets of damascus recently, and I'm generally a size queen anyways :)

If you have any questions, email John and ask. I'm sure he'll be more than happy to answer anything you've got to ask. In the meantime, I may write up a bit about the hammer controls and the "experience" of running an Iron Kiss.

I know I sound like an advertisement for John and Iron Kiss, but really I just think that it's one of the best machines out the for any amount of money and I'm really just a loudmouth opinionated little bastard... ;)

-d
 
Deker

thanks for the input! i admire your passion for the hammers.

now that they have a smaller hammer and the cost is reasonable i may have to save up for one of these. 3800 for an iron kiss or 4000 for the KA75...... i'm thinkin iron kiss!

thanks again

Jake
 
Mr Deker

I'm guessing that 16lb billets of damascus just might need quite a large hammer.

But for us mere mortals, what do you figure the capacity of the 50lb Iron Kiss would be?

I understand that this would only be an estimate, but a general idea would be appreciated.

Leadfoot
 
Farmer Phil said:
How much are we talking for a 5HP 2-Stage air compressor? How many gallon tank is needed? And what kind of juice/wiring is needed for that?
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For something that power hungry I would recommend a reliable brand such as IR or Quincy as the top of my personal list. IR units of that size run $1000-2000 Quincys run $1200-1800 in the splash lubricated flavor, and far more in pressure lubricated.

Tank size doesn't matter, when you're pulling the amount of air that the pump produces the tank will draw down until and equilibrium is reached, larger tanks cycle on and off less often, but take longer to recycle.

60gallons or 80gallons is likely the size you'd be looking at for a 5HP unit. 120gallon tanks are common on larger 7.5HP and up compressors.

Usually they are rated at 220V 22A requiring 10AWG or better wiring. And a Dedicated breaker.

http://www.aircompressorsdirect.com/Quincy-2V41C60VC/p855.html Would be my first choice.
 
65535 said:
For something that power hungry I would recommend a reliable brand such as IR or Quincy as the top of my personal list. IR units of that size run $1000-2000 Quincys run $1200-1800 in the splash lubricated flavor, and far more in pressure lubricated.

Tank size doesn't matter, when you're pulling the amount of air that the pump produces the tank will draw down until and equilibrium is reached, larger tanks cycle on and off less often, but take longer to recycle.

60gallons or 80gallons is likely the size you'd be looking at for a 5HP unit. 120gallon tanks are common on larger 7.5HP and up compressors.

Usually they are rated at 220V 22A requiring 10AWG or better wiring. And a Dedicated breaker.

http://www.aircompressorsdirect.com/Quincy-2V41C60VC/p855.html Would be my first choice.
Click to expand...

With all of that said, if you shop around and look at used units you can get some really good deals a lot of the time. For example, I got a 7.5HP 3ph Quincy for $200 a while back. Sure, I have to put a new 1ph motor on it, but again, shopping around I should be able to find one relatively cheap. I've been compressor shopping for a while in anticipation of an Iron Kiss landing in my shop someday. Another thing you can do is run multiple compressors in parallel. If you don't already have one a compressor around the shop comes in handy for a lot more that just running a hammer...

Also, don't forget that that 5HP 2-stage compressor is for running 100% duty cycle with the hammer. If you're running "one iron in the fire" and the compressor has some time during your reheats to recycle, the 50lb will run off of a 2HP 2-stage with a 60gal or so tank. I don't know about you guys, but I've never done production work that has enough pieces hot at once to keep a hammer running full-time. Sure, maybe if I was Sam making bolts all day, but for damascus work, etc you'd really need one forge per billet being worked, etc.

As to forging efficiency of the 50lb and what it can handle I can't really say yet as I haven't used one. I did just get an email from John saying he has just finished up another 50lb hammer and he has a 75lb partly done. I hope to get down to his place in 2 or 3 weekends from now for a test drive. I'd go sooner but I have orders in the shop that are behind schedule that I have to get finished first. Now, my guess? Well, I'd say that you could probably work Don's 2" W2 without much issue (I'll take a hunk to John's to test with and report results), and a damascus billet of 1 1/2"x3"x6" would probably work just fine as well. I can't say yet just how many heats it would take to get from A to B on a specific size workpiece just yet, but that what the test driving is for. What I might do is take a 4" hunk of W2 with me and photograph it after each heat to give you guys an idea of how much work you can get done in what time.

It's not all about power though. Control comes into play when you're talking about the overall usefullness of a hammer. What good is it if it can smash the crap out of a 3" tall billet, but can't be gentle when you get down to final sizing at 1/4"? I pretty much guarantee that I could forge 1/4" stock into nails on a 160lb Iron Kiss without much trouble at all. I know I can keep billets square and flat with one. I would kill to have an Iron Kiss in the shop when it comes to final sizing damascus. The press is just finicky and inefficient below about 1/2" thickness. This is where a good hammer with square, straight dies really shines. I could draw stock to 1/8" and have it be nice and flat with nice square edges.

Gotta go to work, but I'll post some more thoughts up later.

-d
 
I have seen the Iron Kiss hammers in action, and talked with the maker. They are a first rate product. Each one is hand made and the machining is superb.

Stacy
 
deker said:
... You'll notice that the 50lb Iron Kiss has a 25:1 anvil:ram ratio....Pound per pound, they're cheaper than almost any other hammer on the market at less than $2.50 per pound of machine weight...-d
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First off I think Iron Kiss hammers look and sound great with a great price tag. The features and performance sound superb. The problem is I don't quite understand this.

If their $2.5 a pound then a 50lb hammer weights a bit over 1500lb, with a 25:1 anvil to ram ratio the anvil alone should weight 1250 or 20 to 1 would be 1000lb. Plus if the anvil is 7x7x36 it should weigh in at 499.21lb. Does he include the bolted on 7x7 behind the anvil and the base plate in the anvil weight?

I'm a loud mouthed opinionated Fairbanks hammer owner bastard ;):D But if iron kiss ever makes a 1000lb+ hammer I would be all over it! And much farther in debt. :o :p

Edit- D, if your having trouble with under 1/2" with your press build a rolling mill. My hammer will hit as gentle as a kitten jumping on your lap and I've forged bars to .08", but its still not a replacement for a good rolling mill. :thumbup:
 
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mike malosh said:
Hi D, I am already saving money for the 75lb, so give that one a work out too.
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You got it Mike!

Dan Seaver said:
If their $2.5 a pound then a 50lb hammer weights a bit over 1500lb, with a 25:1 anvil to ram ratio the anvil alone should weight 1250 or 20 to 1 would be 1000lb. Plus if the anvil is 7x7x36 it should weigh in at 499.21lb. Does he include the bolted on 7x7 behind the anvil and the base plate in the anvil weight?
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The foot plate does indeed count as part of the anvil weight. Don't forget though, I said "less than $2.50" per pound. I don't know the overall machine weight of the 50# off hand, but i'd be willing to bet it's on the lower end per pound.

I'm a loud mouthed opinionated Fairbanks hammer owner bastard
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Enjoy it! I can't seem to find a brand new Fairbanks anywhere though :)

Edit- D, if your having trouble with under 1/2" with your press build a rolling mill. My hammer will hit as gentle as a kitten jumping on your lap and I've forged bars to .08", but its still not a replacement for a good rolling mill.
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It's definitely in the plans, but a better press than what I have and a bigger hammer than my Kerrihard are in the plans first. Priorities my friend, priorities! Whatever extra thickness may be left is fixed by the Blanchard grinder anyways :)

-d
 
deker said:
You got it Mike!



The foot plate does indeed count as part of the anvil weight. Don't forget though, I said "less than $2.50" per pound. I don't know the overall machine weight of the 50# off hand, but i'd be willing to bet it's on the lower end per pound.



Enjoy it! I can't seem to find a brand new Fairbanks anywhere though :)



It's definitely in the plans, but a better press than what I have and a bigger hammer than my Kerrihard are in the plans first. Priorities my friend, priorities! Whatever extra thickness may be left is fixed by the Blanchard grinder anyways :)

-d
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Thanks for the quick and honest answer.

Blah! That extra thickness ground off translates to lost profit that could pay for your new hammer. :) Lets say your bar has one low spot at .110 while the rest of the bar averages .13. Lets say that this .02 difference is the average for every bar, the bar is 1 wide and 12 long. That almost 1/4 of a cubic inch per bar. Lets say you get 7 bars per billet and sell it for $10 a linear inch. Thats about 1.68 cubic inches extra per billet lost or about $160.

Now lets say your rolling mill rolls to .005, that's only $40 lost. I've thought long and hard about it and the best way to increase profits while keeping the quality and price the same, its not working faster or on a bigger hammer; it is (drum roll please) to work more efficiently to decrease waste.


Anyways back to the main topic. :p
 
Thanks for the reply Decker, will look forward to your experience with the little 50.

Leadfoot
 
yes but the anyang has the number 33 on it and the Iron Kiss has the number 50.

kind of like on spinal tap with the amps that go to 11

:)

jake
 
I was looking at compressors today on Evil Bay and it looks like you could het a 50 pound Iron Kiss and a decent compresor for right around $5 before freight. I think that the 55 lb Anyang cost more than that before you added the cost of a base and last I heard, they didn't import that one into the US. That may have changed. From what I have seen, the best deals on the market as far as bang for the buck seem to be the Iron Kiss, Big Blu and Say Mak hammers. I have never used an Iron Kiss, but having played with a Big Blu and a Say Mak, I would probably go with the Say Mak.
 
deker said:
It's just that simple. I mean, when the base plate is 24"x24"x2", it adds to the effective mass of the anvil by 324lbs. It's all just physics. :)

-d
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Well, not exactly. Its like forging on a ~800 pound normal anvil but if the extra 324lb was actually extra mass on the anvil it would be like forging on a 824 pound post anvil since all the mass is directly under the work, not spread out. I don't consider it anvil weight unless its a solid piece directly under the die since that's what effective anvil mass is on a power hammer. At least Iron Kiss hammers don't have a hollow anvil like some eh? :D

Jake, for the price you can't go wrong with a 50lb Iron Kiss.
 
James told me he has the first shipping container with 55 pound Anyangs on order and coming in soon. It will indeed cost more than the 50# IK, but might break almost even if you factor in compressor and all that.

Hammers are a very personal choice, maybe if John was a few months earlier I would have considered the IK instead (as the 100 is WAY too much hammer for my own shop). I'll be VERY fascinated to run the 50 pound IK at F&B hopefully (DEKER HINT HINT)! But I don't think i'll be trading mine EVER.

John's entry into the under 100 pound hammer range is interesting. Most under 100 pound utility style hammers are usually homebuilt Kinyon style, the rest are LGs or similar style mechanicals, and the small but growing Anyang. The under 100 pound market makes up a large majority of small and hobbyist blacksmiths and bladesmiths. I will be interested as I said to compare the IK50 against other hammers of similar size (including my own)!

Now having run the big SayMak just about every day for a couple months now it takes the cake should I ever want a bigger hammer.

Either way you'll have A FRIKKIN POWERHAMMER KICK ASS STOMPSTOMPSTOMP!!!!

Now, when I stop trying to be objective, I am a self contained hammer man. I think getting a hammer that needs a separate compressor SUCKS no matter what that means it can do. I prefer the chuff chuff chuff steady beat, let's you know the hammer's running. I can do single blow very easy on the SayMak (not that things call for it much lately), and with a self contained it's there, you get it set on the base in place bolted down and plug it in. No hunting for a used or paying double shipping on a compressor as well as the hammer, then worrying or ending up after the major purchase that your compressor is not enough for the duty cycle and you find yourself waiting between heats. A self contained is the whole package tuned for each other, compressor and ram in on big box running in unison. A 5HP two stage compressor with a 80-100 gallon tank is a big bit of prime real estate in the shop, don't know about everyone else's immaculately clean big spacious shops but in my little 12 by 20 at home that would be a significant amount of space, then counting the hammer also and it's even more.
 
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