Is a scandi grind or a saber grind stronger?

G

Grizzlyman89701

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So I have heard mixed opinions on each but is a Scandinavian grind or a saber grind stronger (less likely to chip or break under stress).
 
If I understand correctly than sabre grind is a hollow grind. Scandi grind is flat. That would mean for me - with other things being equal (and HT being adjusted for the task intended) - that scandi grind is the 'stronger' one.

EDIT: Just to mention - I personally do not have too much regard for hollow grind when it comes to knives, but I would always choose blade design, geometry and profile based on the task I have in mind.

Even stronger than scandi would be convex grind, obviously. Advantage of scandi grind is that you can maintain the edge geometry over the time easily (because the grind is flat) - just sharpen always the whole grind - possibly a lot of work though as most outdoor knives are monosteel (i.e. not san-mai or similar). I have a small puukko from Iisaki in 1095 and it is indeed a very strong knife.
 
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matus said:
If I understand correctly than sabre grind is a hollow grind.
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It isn't.
Basically it's like Scandi grind with a seconday bevel.
So, the Saber will have the same blade strength, with a tougher edge. :)
 
matus said:
If I understand correctly than sabre grind is a hollow grind. Scandi grind is flat. That would mean for me - with other things being equal (and HT being adjusted for the task intended) - that scandi grind is the 'stronger' one.

EDIT: Just to mention - I personally do not have too much regard for hollow grind when it comes to knives, but I would always choose blade design, geometry and profile based on the task I have in mind.

Even stronger than scandi would be convex grind, obviously. Advantage of scandi grind is that you can maintain the edge geometry over the time easily (because the grind is flat) - just sharpen always the whole grind - possibly a lot of work though as most outdoor knives are monosteel (i.e. not san-mai or similar). I have a small puukko from Iisaki in 1095 and it is indeed a very strong knife.
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A saber grind is not hollow, it is like a ffg but the bevel does not go all the way to the top. There is no hollow in it.

The saber will be more strong due to its secondary bevel/edge.

The scandi will cut better though...
 
Saber all the way......

And M1 you're gonna need to provide your reasoning behind a Scandinavia grind cutting better since I find it lacking in that area.....real world examples only please .....
 
A saber and a scandi are essentially the same thing. Either can have an edge bevel or be zero ground, and either can have a flat, hollow, or convex primary grind.

So on that point the question does not make sense.

Also chipping is an edge phenomenon, and breaking is a cross sectional area phenomenon. So that part doesn't make sense.

So the answer is "depends."
 
marcinek said:
A saber and a scandi are essentially the same thing. Either can have an edge bevel or be zero ground, and either can have a flat, hollow, or convex primary grind.

So on that point the question does not make sense.

Also chipping is an edge phenomenon, and breaking is a cross sectional area phenomenon. So that part doesn't make sense.

So the answer is "depends."
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Based mainly on outdoor use experience with survival leukus and a variety of hunters, what I call a sabre grind is "stronger."

Saber grind is where the profile looks, exaggeratedly, like a side view of the next door neighbor watering his lawn--straight down then the belly laying lower than it should be across his waist. Then the bevel comes down like his bird legs. More steel behind the edge, for me, is stronger than a flatter Scandi at the edge. Sabre grind has always made good choppers for me. Not a lot of difference between convex and sabre grind that I've ever seen...just a little fatter above the edge for sabre.

My experience is that the Scandi can be the better cutter/slicer. I always assumed it was due to the flat grind geometry as opposed to saber. I usually sharpen them accordingly, more of an "axe" edge on the sabre grinds and finer, sharper, folder-grade edge on the Scandis.

Ideal set for me is a sabre ground leuku with a Scandi puuku.
 
A saber grind is a grind that does not reach the full height of the blade. A saber grind can be hollow, flat, or convex, but it is still a saber grind. A "scandi grind" is shorthand terminology for a zero saber grind, either dead flat or very very slightly hollow.

The question is how are we isolating the variables? It's possible to make one stronger than the other without much difficulty. Providing that we keep the stock thickness and blade width identical, if we also keep the edge angle equal then the scandi will be stronger because the steel behind the edge will not have been thinned with a primary grind like the saber grind. If primary grind angle is held constant then the saber grind will be stronger because the edge angle will be thicker.
 
So "sabre grind" has nothing to do with a profile of any kind? It's any blade where the grind does not go all the way to the spine?

Because i thought it was a distinct "profile" of grind like hollow, flat, convex, etc....just a bit "fatter" than convex right above the edge/bevel.

I see what you're saying on Scandi. Good definition of it.
 
Well, I am not quite sure what is today's defining of saber grind, but I actually have a real (well, it was never sharpened) WW1 sabre and behind the edge it has a slight hollow ridge up to about half the width of the blade for nearly the full length of the blade (save for last 1/4 towards the tip). My understanding is that the main purpose of it was to make the blade lighter. But I am no expert on the topic.
 
matus said:
Well, I am not quite sure what is today's defining of saber grind, but I actually have a real (well, it was never sharpened) WW1 sabre and behind the edge it has a slight hollow ridge up to about half the width of the blade for nearly the full length of the blade (save for last 1/4 towards the tip). My understanding is that the main purpose of it was to make the blade lighter. But I am no expert on the topic.
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That's the fuller. It is an addition to, and not a part of, a saber grind; and yes, it is to reduce weight.

If I'm not mistaken, a saber grind is any blade where the angled portion of the blade doesn't go all the way to the spine...in other words, there is a portion of the blade where the thickness is the full thickness of the blade stock, and not angled toward the edge.

I'm guessing here, but if one is going to put a fuller on a blade, one usually will only do it on a saber grind; and one generally has to do it on the unbeveled portion.
 
The Barkriver Scandi is an interesting variant here, since it is appears to be a Scandi with a convex secondary bevel.
 
Shriket33 said:
The Barkriver Scandi is an interesting variant here, since it is appears to be a Scandi with a convex secondary bevel.
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Technically it's not a Scandi then. There is no secondary bevel on a true Scandi. It's a Sabre flat grind. You can have sabre hollow, sabre convex...

Another way to look at all of this is that a true Scandi grind is a saber grind without a secondary bevel. And vice-versa.

The term "saber" is used in both 'profile' and 'grind' terminology, thus some confusion here.

I know the 'grind' I like and prefer as strongest for my outdoor heavy use blades is saber flat grind with a convex edge.
 
EChoil said:
Technically it's not a Scandi then. There is no secondary bevel on a true Scandi. It's a Sabre flat grind. You can have sabre hollow, sabre convex...

Another way to look at all of this is that a true Scandi grind is a saber grind without a secondary bevel. And vice-versa.

The term "saber" is used in both 'profile' and 'grind' terminology, thus some confusion here.

I know the 'grind' I like and prefer as strongest for my outdoor heavy use blades is saber flat grind with a convex edge.
Click to expand...

I don't think there is a term like a "true scandi grind" here in Scandinavia!
A Scandigrind is a Sabergrind and as others have said, it can be hollow, flat or convex.
It can have a zeroedge or a bevel, or a convex edge.


Regards
Mikael
 
The scandi grind works better on wood than a grind with a secondary bevel. The large final bevel gives excellent control. Also, it makes the blade thinner behind the very edge, which matters a lot in working wood. To recap: better control of cuts plus less force to make the cut, these make a scandi grind great for woodwork.
 
Mikael W said:
I don't think there is a term like a "true scandi grind" here in Scandinavia!
A Scandigrind is a Sabergrind and as others have said, it can be hollow, flat or convex.
It can have a zeroedge or a bevel, or a convex edge.


Regards
Mikael
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Let me use the term 'pure' rather than 'true.'

I believe most would say a pure ("real"...whatever...) Scandi grind is saber flat zero ground...no secondary.

At one time they were likely sabre hollow ground as only big wheels were available to grind them. Modern day, however, the real Scandis are zero ground to the edge from the beginning of the upper grind.

As far as the subject here, the grind differences, maybe if I put it this way: A pure Scandi is always a sabre but a sabre isn't always a Scandi.​

A good point you make is that most people probably term it more by the look of the knife rather than such technicalities as we're getting into here. Your point is valid. I would call anything that looked sabre zero ground a "Scandi," even though it may have secondaries or micro bevels or hollows I can't see at the time without my loupe. :) We're already on ground that is way too technical and wouldn't even be noticed by most users of the knives. I'm speaking strictly about the definition of the grind itself--Scandi.

We need to hear from the knife makers...which I am NOT. I'd be glad to receive further education on the subject.

EDIT: I'll also say, in consideration of the history of the blade design way up there in the north....a zero grind makes for easier sharpening which I think would have been a consideration back then. Example would be the leukus with that grind, developed by the Samis.
 
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Grizzlyman89701 said:
So I have heard mixed opinions on each but is a Scandinavian grind or a saber grind stronger (less likely to chip or break under stress).
Click to expand...

Depends on the thickness behind the edge and the relative toughness/brittleness of the metal. Thinner edges tend to be sharper and easier to break. You can have a zero grind scandi that maintains the same angle all the way to the edge that will cut like a laser. Edges that are thin are easy to break so I can take the same knife and change the edge bevel angle. Using a slightly wider angle I can make the metal behind the edge thicker. Thicker metal is stronger. Simply changing the geometry changes the thickness adjacent the edge, which makes the question of which grind is stronger relative to the particular knife in question.
I personally find thicker knives don't cut as well despite the increase in durability. The best solution is relative to how you use the knife. If you baton and pry thicker is the way to go. I keep my edges as thin as I can until they start giving me problems.
 
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