Is BLADE Magazine in cahoots with the "Ministry of Truth"? Re: ATS-34 Hype.

It seems that with the newer super steels such as 420V and others. That one is wasteing ones time bothering with ATS. I personally hate it but it is used widely these days especially by the factory knife folks so maybe it does make sense to settle the heat treat issue once and for all. I will addmit even thought I hate ATS I would love to see which method holds a better edge.


Regards,


Tom Carey

[This message has been edited by Tom Carey (edited 31 March 1999).]
 
I don't much care for ATS-34 any more either, but if a maker comes out with a design I like, and the heat treat is done right, I won't hesitate to buy it.

The last thing I remember hearing from Ernie Mayer about heat treating ATS-34, he had given two blanks heat treated at the two different humps, and the one tempered at the lower temp had a finer grain structure, and was about 20% tougher and more stain resistant. Ernie said this was actually more than he expected. I have an ATS-34 Black Cloud Sharktooth that holds an edge a good long time. I even have an ATS-34 fighting bowie of Ernie's that I have been trying to teach to be a camp knife by doing some chopping and splitting with it. The edge is holding up real well.

I have no doubt that there are cleaner, tougher steels, and I certainly prefer a piece of differentially tempered tool steel, but what the heck, I have a couple of pretty good ATS-34 blades too.

Harv
 
As I understand the conventional wisdom, ATS34 is very good at all the things we expect of knife blade steel (not sword blade steel) but it isn't best at any of them. Other steels are better for edge-holding, or toughness, or not turning brown, but steel that's better at all of that (420V?) is seriously expensive.

Give them time. Evolution doesn't happen overnight.

------------------
- JKM
www.chaicutlery.com

 
Well I consider ATS-34 the minimum I will accept a knife in as of this last year unless I get a good deal on something else. However, ATS-34 is a very good working steel for folders were strength is not as relevant. Most locks will break before a blade does unless lateral forces are imparted to the material. The CPM steels are now the way to go for me and will stick to them as much as possible. BG-42, VG-10 and ATS-55 are acceptable in folders also. But I think that proper heat treating can overcome many deficiencies talked about on this thread.
 
Well I consider ATS-34 the minimum I will accept a knife in as of this last year unless I get a good deal on something else. However, ATS-34 is a very good working steel for folders were strength is not as relevant. Most locks will break before a blade does unless lateral forces are imparted to the material. The CPM steels are now the way to go for me and will stick to them as much as possible. BG-42, VG-10 and ATS-55 are acceptable in folders also. But I think that proper heat treating can overcome many deficiencies talked about on this thread.
 
Ed - straight edge (linear straight line), plain edge strips would be fine (actually best)..Please include temps & dwell times of each piece. Sharp is good, but we'll put on the final edge. Generally we like to test more than one piece, but I think that one each would be a good start. Of primary importance for Spyderco is edge retension and toughness (won't break). But most ELU are not pleased with the non stainless steels in the field because of corrosion, so we like 13%+ Chrome.
sal

 
Ok, so it wasn't just me.

I picked up the current issue of Blade and looked at the cover three times, thinking it must have been an issue from a few years ago. I checked, checked and then checked again. ATS34 the new wonder steel? Huh?

I have found in my own personal usage that the new 440v on my Spyderco Military, M2 on my AFCK and BG42 on the Sebenza far outlast anything I have in ATS34 and I can sharpen them to a much finer edge, too.

Since then I've sworn that I won't buy any more ATS34 knives. I've held true so far!

It isn't that ATS34 is bad, per say, there are just other steels available that work better (for my needs).

--Doug
 
Sal & Ed:

Thanks for doing this test. It's one thing to talk about it, another to spend your own time making it happy. Thanks for going about and beyond. I'll be anxiously awaiting results!

Joe
jat@cup.hp.com
 
Oops guess I covered this a long time ago.

[This message has been edited by Tom Carey (edited 31 March 1999).]
 
Well, another mind boggleing steel topic. While I agree ATS34 is not the top steel by any means. I must say it is a great all around knife steel,(middle of the road)!It seems to be the most used in both factory and alot of custom folders?
I do wonder what everybody does with their knives any way? I have never broken, chipped,wore out or rusted any of my ATS blades. It seems that everyone is talking extremes. Does the average JOE need all this? But, hey were knife nuttz. Sincerely, I think ATS is a great steel....Does everything OK! I like it!!!
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My nickel.
 
Got my BLADE magazine today and noticed that they printed a letter from you that is essentially
the same as your intial post.
Maybe "cahoots" and "ministry of truth"
is a bit overstated.
Gester

------------------
It easier to get forgiveness than permission
 
Hi All,
A year or so ago we went through this over on Benchmade's Fourm. I got some flack when I said that ATS-34 wasn't the be-all/end-all of knife steels. This came about at a time someone was badmouthing the particular steel that Buck was now using. I said at the time, that while the 425M or 420HC (whatever) might not hold an edge as long as ATS-34 it didn't chip and break like it either. This I found while using these knives in sub-zero weather on the trapline here in Minnesota.

I also noted that while the blades might not be "super-steels" those used by Spyderco and Cold Steel held up well in the cold.
Happy Trails,
Dan
 
Hi All,
It is my first post in Bladeforums. But perhaps someone of you remember me in other places.
Dan K, are you the guy on Benchmade Forum to whom I posted a reply about alloys other than ATS-34?
I wrote there were (and are) alloys that can be better (or worse) than ATS-34, it depends on the heat treatment, the use you will make of the blade, and I ended saying "looking its composition, ATS-34 seems a good steel, but nothing so innovative. To make a best-all-around knife, you can choose some other alloys".
Someone posted a little rude answer, asking to me who I was to discuss theorically what they tested on real life. I replied that innovation cames from thoerical speculation and test on field, and all ended there.
Now, a year or more after, I see many people who likes M2, CPM-420 V, etc., the same alloys I was trying to suggest.
I am very happy with this. I wasn't wrong and now I can buy some knives made with alloys I always dreamt of.

Falcenberg
 
The media does not necessarily have to believe the truth of that which they print - there can be other imperatives. Here are a hypothetical couple.

Controvery - Stir up some arguments and people will write in defending/agreeing. That lets the media know there's someone out there, and they can show evidence to advertisers. I recall a noted gunwriter back in the 60's writing that the .45 auto was outmoded and useless - powerful stuff at the time. It generated reader response for months. The writer didn't mean it; the .45 was his favorite carry piece.

Customer support - In another thread, Sal Glesser of Spyderco explained the difference between "customer" and "end user." A magazine's customers are its advertisers. A knife magazine's customers are knife makers, many of whom have large stocks of yesterday's wonder steel, ATS-34. I have no way of knowing whether it happened, but it's possible that the magazine's knifemaker/customers appealed to the magazine for help in reducing the end-user pressure to move to a new steel while knifemaker current stocks of ATS-34 are still high.

Neither imperative is inherently bad. ATS-34 remains a good steel. Are there better? Assuredly. This forum is an incredible source of interest and knowledge, and we care passionately about the last 1% of performance. We do not, however, form the entire marketplace for knives, but the "cutting edge" of technology, so to speak, the "early adopters." Knifemakers do care about our opinions, because we significantly influence the mass of buyers, so the market will likely move our direction over time.

The faster knifemakers clean out their old stock, the better for us. In the meantime, we can buy the old, or wait for the new.
 
So, someone bottom-line it for me... are the ATS-34 blades on the BM's that I have treated to the lower hump, or the higher hump? Don't care which one people think is best (until after I hear the test results, of course
wink.gif
). Just would be interested to know which mine is. The Eclipse/Ascent 830 that I bought a coupla years ago is still as stainless/non-discolored as the day I bought it, and it has spent quite a bit of time in 'moist' environments. The blade on my 710 that I bought about 7 weeks ago already is showing a brownish tinge. Quite a difference. Don't care that the tinge is there, because the edge on the 710 is wicked (put it there myself, so it isn't that hard to do), and seems to be holding OK. Not much usage yet, though.

O_D
 
ATS and 154cm, probably won't go away....I doubt if the reason so many knives are made with it is that they have surplus stock..It may have something to do with the prices, workabilty, availability and just a good all around steel!!! It did kinda have a mystic a few years ago.(everybody wanted ATS34)Of course there are better grade steels. But most cost more and may or may not be harder to work or get...I don't make knives so I'm not sure...How about ats-55, It seems to be a very nice steel!!! While we may be the 1% in the state of the art knife world, I will always want blades with this grade of steel at a resonable price..Ats/ 154cm Are classic steels that will always be around, like 440s...Don't you think?
What will be the next super steel anyway? M2, A2,cmp440v....???
Are there infinite ways to make steels?(Joe Talmage?) Would there be 1000s of combinations left? I do agree Walker that the media likes to stir up stuff, it worked! Its easy to take things out of context, they do it all the time... But my gosh, there are still so many knives being made out of Ats...Guess we'll have to wait and see where it goes in the future..Spydie is seeming to get away from ATS 34!!
Seems like a debate still going on how to temp. this steel? Can't be dead yet, were still learning about it. An ats34 Sword? Very interesting!!!
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This sounds like a Kindergarten question in a college classroom, but...

Can anybody explain to me why it is that ATS-34 seems to crap up a stone or ceramic sharpener faster than other steels?
I've found that ATS-34 sharpens fairly well if I stop two or three times in a sharpening session to clean the crud out of the pours of the stone I'm using. Is this just me or has anyone else noticed this phenomenon?
BTW, I usually clean my stones and ceramics in the Dishwasher while my wife isn't looking. Works great!
biggrin.gif


------------------
I cut it, and I cut it, and it's STILL too short!

 
In reply to the last three posts:

OL Dog B: The Benchmade ATS-34 blades are undoubtedly tempered at the upper range. It is possible that knife manufacturers do things a little differently than private makers. I don't know exactly what Benchmade's processes are, but it is possible that the blades are cut out and then hardened before they are ground. The high-speed grinding process then heats the blades up to draw temps, almost certainly the upper range, and the blades air quench. Mark McWillis did say that they cryo quench their blades. Again, I don't know if that is how they temper their blades, but that is what I suspect. The result is a pretty hard ATS-34 blade that holds an edge really well, but does not have a reputation for great toughness though I think their blades are adequate in toughness for the knives they make and the way I use them. The "brownish tinge" should come of with metal polish such as Flitz or Simichrome.

Bartman, my guess is that BG-42 will be the next standard steel for "custom" makers. It offers good stain resistance, and is superior to ATS-34 in all ways. The surplus stock notion sounds reasonable to me, especially when it comes to manufacturers. BG-42 has not become all that popular because, until lately, it hasn't been very available in the stock sizes that knife makers prefer, namely 1/8".

Ken, hey, its stainless. I've noticed that even when it is really hard, ATS-34 tends to form large burrs during sharpening.

Harv
 
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