Is "cable damascus" technically layered?

[Salem Straub]

Hi y'all, I don't want to bring up a subject which may have been debated here ad nauseum, but I wonder if I could get some thoughts from people on a matter of pattern welding terminology.

I recently had a conversation with someone who claimed he takes 1 1/2" logging cable of 220 wires, welds it solid, folds the billet three times, and gets a resulting billet of 1760 layers. His assertion (and my point of contention) is that the first course of welding makes a 220 layer billet out of 220 wires.

I have not heard anyone claiming before that this is a valid way of seeing cable steel. It seems to me that if folded three times, in strictly technical terms, it would be an eight layer billet. I like wire patterns and blades, don't get me wrong, I just always thought the traditional meaning of "layering" or "laminating" would not apply to these steels.

It seems to me that the number of wires running side by side would be much greater than the number of wires on top of each other in the resultant billet. And those wires are only directly overlapping at one small area of the billet. Move the cross section down a half inch, and the same wires are in completely different places.

My apologies if it seems like I am nit picking, or need to just drop it. It just struck me like an easy way of impressing the public with high layer count at a reduced labor cost.

Your thoughts? Not really fishing for backup, just wondering if I'm mistaken....

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

Your point is often made. It is like any other arbitrary system, people will see it from two sides.

Here is some food for thought.

Yes all the strands do not lay directly over each other....but the do spiral around each other. In the process of making the billet, you twist it as tight as possible, thus increasing the number of twists. A twist billet does not need to have as many layers as a folded billet to get a much higher number of transitions, which is what makes a damascus pattern.

Damascus is viewed by the pattern formed when the layers cross each other. All patterns are some sort of manipulation of the layers. If the layering was perfect, you would only see one layer (as in plywood).

Also, you can look at it this way - If you took a piece of steel and folded it eight times ,it would be 256 layers. If you cut a piece off the end and laid it flat ( as in making a mosaic billet), would you call it a one layer piece ,just because the layers are side by side ( and not stacked anymore), or would it still be a 256 layer piece.

The real problem with comparing the layer count in cable - to stacked - to mosaic, is that you are talking apples and oranges. The only thing they share is forge welding and the name damascus. ( slight exaggeration, but you get the meaning)

I consider a bundle of 49 rounds no different than a stack of 49 bars in starting a damascus bullet. It is the starting place for calculating the final layer count. Many very complex damascus patterns are formed by bundles of smaller squares and rectangles, of which only a few are over each other at any one place.

Stacy

 

[Salem Straub]

That's my point really, it's apples and oranges. I wouldn't really refer to a lot of mosaic steels as necessarily "layered" either... thank you for your thoughts.