Is Cold Steel moving towards 420?

B

bewshy

Joined
Aug 16, 2002
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I was thinking of picking up one of there tomahawks just to have fun with (There cheap), but I heard that there moving towards 420 in alot of there blades. A few years ago they bashed 420 in this article.

CS article

If I read the article wrong, please correct me, but on page 3 under the Steel heading 420 and 425 is bashed pretty good. :confused:






eb
 
Yes they are and they are stupid for it.

420 makes a gret kitchen knife maybe thick enough you can get a good strong blade but you will then sacrifice edge retention.

So yes bad move to try to stay alive.
 
I would like to hear what they have to say about that article now. I hope alot of people read that.
 
Technically, the 420 they are referring to in the article is 420j2, which I don't think is the same thing as the 420 zero quench they are using. However, they are both a step down from aus 8a.
 
The article is about both 420j2, which is indeed cr@p (as is 420). These are the 0.1% to 0.15% carbon steels, which just barely get hard (Rc50-53) enough to be considered knife blades.

They also write about 425Modified, which is very nearly the same as 420Mod and 420HC (Buck's fav). The key is the carbon level, which ranges between 0.4% and 0.54%. These steels all make mediocre blades, as they top out around Rc56-57, depending on how much carbon, who heat treats and how, etc. These steels are in the range of AUS-6, basic entry level stuff, brought to market in the $15 to $30 range. If you are going to buy a cheap knife, I'd be tempted to trust Buck before most others... at least they have Paul Bos on staff.

AUS-8 is a small but notable step upward, mostly because it has 0.7-0.75% carbon and gets harder.

For these simple, basic stainless steels, hardness is all you have working for you, assuming they didn't foul up the heat treat and fail to temper them properly (so they aren't brittle).

The 420/425 series stuff can be fine blanked, makes production cheaper. The 440 series stuff can't be as easily blanked, and is more expensive to purchase, and apparently becoming more difficult to acquire in the marketplace for some reason. 440A, 440B, and 440C are only superior to the 420 stuff because they have increasingly higher levels of carbon, and can be run harder. 440's have more chrome, but it doesn't help corrosion resistance much vs. 420 (in fact, 420 tends to be more corrosion resistant than 440C), and in fact makes the 440's a bit more brittle.

Whether Cold Steel cryo's or not, well, it can't hurt if they do a temper before cryo, it might help convert some retained austenite to martensite, but the fact is they are using it as a marketing tool, and if they are doing cryo well, at best they are optimizing a cheap steel, at worst they are inducing stresses and spending more on heat treat of a cheap steel. Which is fine if they bring these to market at an affordable price (like Buck does).

Caveat Emptor.

It is funny to catch Lynn having to eat crow though.

And don't let anyone tell you that 420HC, 420Mod, and 425Mod are significantly different. 425Mod has a bit more chrome, another 1.0% or so, and that's most of the story.

All of the 420's are very corrosion resistant, their primary benefit (aside from being cheap).

See Spyderco's steel matrix for the compositions if you are interested:
http://www.spyderco.com/education/s...7+PM&mscssid=KT8WBVS1F2DX9JQEM35TH1RV0422DXFC
 
I have to admit that I used to really be a Cold Steel customer. I have several of their knives, the Trailmaster, Recon tanto, X-Large folding tanto, Twistmaster and several other smaller knives of theirs. I will no longer buy any of their knives that use the shoddy steel that they are going to now. I now spend my money on Spyderco, Benchmade, Microtech and other manufacturers to a lesser extent.

I guess they will still have the novice knife purchaser as we all once were before we learned what good steels were.
 
Originally posted by John Watson
I have to admit that I used to really be a Cold Steel customer. I have several of their knives, the Trailmaster, Recon tanto, X-Large folding tanto, Twistmaster and several other smaller knives of theirs. I will no longer buy any of their knives that use the shoddy steel that they are going to now. I now spend my money on Spyderco, Benchmade, Microtech and other manufacturers to a lesser extent.

I guess they will still have the novice knife purchaser as we all once were before we learned what good steels were.
Click to expand...
So the Carbon V doesn't work for you?
 
Who knows for sure what Carbon V steel is? I have read that it is whatever none stainless steel that Cold Steel happens to be using at the time. Some have said that it has been at different times O-1, 1095 or 0170-6/50100-B. All of these are good steels and are in my book preferable to 420HC/Modified, 425 or AUS-8. The problem here is that if Cold Steel decides tomorrow that they need to cut costs on their none stainless steel knives, they could start using a lower quality steel and still call it Carbon V.

None of the 420 series are high carbon steels. 420J2 has so little carbon that about the only thing it is good for is the wall hangers that companies like United Cutlery make. 420HC/Modified and 425 are better, and on really cheap knives are acceptable. Don't expect much and you won't be disappointed.

This article by Cold Steel is an example of the negative selling they do that bugs the hell out of me. That stuff about 425 being junk is a direct attack on Buck. They are telling people that if you buy Buck knives you are getting a junk steel and that you should beware.

It is funny that they are now using steel that they scoffed at in the past. I am sure that they will tell everyone that the Zero Quench they use makes this a much better steel. Afterall, Cold Steel are the kings of hype and I am sure they have prepared themselves for the eventuality of a backlash from their about face on the use of 420 steel for knife blades.

I have read many people's posts defending Cold Steel and saying if you don't like them then don't buy their knives. Damn straight, that goes without saying. I like a lot of their knives, but I would never consider purchasing anything from a company that spends so much time bashing their competitors. Present the good points about your own products and keep the sanctimonious, hollier than thou BS out of your advertising. It may just come back to bite you in the rear-end.
 
You gotta love the plastic hilts on the cheap series of cold steel knives too. That would go over real well in a knife fight. I think Cold Steel has some great designs and their high end of knives is pretty awesome. But I think they were alot more relevant 10 years ago.
 
Originally posted by oliverplomion
It's very good to speak about all this...but are we REALLY sure they're gonna change their steel?
Click to expand...
Well, on the models that they're already producing in 420, I could say we're pretty sure.:)
 
Oliver,
They already manufacture several models using 420:
  • OSS, ODA, UWK
  • both Peace Keepers
  • both Safe Keepers
  • Spike
  • Desperado
  • Kobun, Oyabun
  • Urban Pal, Super Edge
Plus, their Ready Edge and Mini Pal are 400 series. I wonder if anyone has done any Cliff Stamp style testing on the edge retention of their Sub-zero quench stuff. Hey, wait aminute Cliff's initials are CS. Coincidence? :p
 
Yes I know that and own a Safe keeper in 420, and a spike with that steel too, but they both cut very well and there is no problem to resharpen them with my spyderco triangle sharpener...
What I mean is are they going to change ALL the program to that steel or keep the "classics" in carbonV?
For the peace keeper I mean it's both available in carbonV and 420...
Anybody know about that?
 
They have used Carbon V and stainless (and San Mai for that matter) for years and I doubt that will change. Time will tell how many of their stainless knives will incorparate 420. Unless there is someone here that is privy to Cold Steel's plans for the future it would be speculation on our part to assume that they are planning a complete changeover.
 
Oh man...that article is great. Thanks for posting that. I wonder how CS feels about having their foot in there mouth like that. Granted, their using 420HC, not 420J2 as in the article. But they are undoubtedly "cheaping out" their steel. Very amusing read.
 
Rdangerer summed it up a lot better than I ever could. Personally, I think we are all a little spoiled on blade steels. 420 and 440 series steels have been around for years and people have done just fine with them. I have customers that have skinned every deer for the last dozen years with a buck 303 or schrade stockman. However, as a buisness move, Cold Steel is making a huge mistake in changing from good steels like AUS-8 and Carbon V to 420. I would like to know what they are thinking. This will not help them at all. How would we all feel if Benchmade went from 154cm and s30v to 420j2? Exactly.
I am afraid they may have just shot themselves in the foot.
 
I have two knives in that steel. An Arclite and a 110. Both will get sharp they just wont stay that way forever. But I only paid $25 for one and $30 for the other. I guess you could say they are my beaters. If I have a dirty job to do I'll grab the 110. It's got a nice thin edge for slicing and a big solid handle to hold on to. I think it's a good value. And if it breaks I wont shed too many tears over it. Do I carry it every day? No. Am I glad I own it? Yes.

Frank

edit: My main beef with Cold Steel has always been that most of their folders are NOT lefty friendly.
 
In my opinion Cold Steel really don't care much about the educated knife buyer. They realize that most of the people that will be looking at purchasing one of their knives will not know AUS-8A from 420 whatever. They are willing to lose the educated customer that doesn't like the change to 420 in their effort to reduce costs.

Cold Steel will put some sort of spin on things to make it appear that their way of hardening the blade makes 420 much better than the steel it is replacing. This is a company that is very good at this sort of thing. I have a feeling that the change of steel will not have any meaningful effect on Cold Steel's sales. If the reduced cost of steel leads to reduced pricing (I do not know if this has actually happened, since I have not followed Cold Steel's pricing), then they will quite possibly see sales increases.
 
It also seems that on a few of their knives they have gone to 440A sub-zero quench as in the recon 1 folder. It used to be AUS8A. I was going to purchase a recon at AUS8A but now in 440A, it's off my list unless someone has used this metal and can tell me the 440A Sub-Zero is anywhere near the quality of 8A.- Cant find any specs on the 440a SZ. Dave
 
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