Is Cold Steel moving towards 420?

Originally posted by John Watson
I have to admit that I used to really be a Cold Steel customer. I have several of their knives, the Trailmaster, Recon tanto, X-Large folding tanto, Twistmaster and several other smaller knives of theirs. I will no longer buy any of their knives that use the shoddy steel that they are going to now. I now spend my money on Spyderco, Benchmade, Microtech and other manufacturers to a lesser extent.

I guess they will still have the novice knife purchaser as we all once were before we learned what good steels were.
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I'm with you. I still own a few Cold Steel knives, but if they downgrade their steel, then I'm all set dealing with them from now on.
 
Originally posted by MAURICE
... I think we are all a little spoiled on blade steels. 420 and 440 series steels have been around for years and people have done just fine with them. I have customers that have skinned every deer for the last dozen years with a buck 303 or schrade stockman. However, as a buisness move, Cold Steel is making a huge mistake in changing from good steels like AUS-8 and Carbon V to 420. I would like to know what they are thinking.
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BF has numerous steel snobs as members... and I'm one of them. Spoiled? I dunno. Shame... life is simpler, and cheaper, if you are oblivious to the finer things (nice watches, great restaurants, fine wine, microbrews, etc).

420HC really does make an ok blade for the money. Buck makes an honest product when it's priced right.

What is Cold Steel thinking? It absolutely must be survival/financially oriented. Costs must be going up for AUS-8 and/or having it produced overseas, or their chosen market niche has indicated they are price sensitive customers. Survival. I can't fault Lynn for wanting his business to survive. There are plenty of other places to find fault though.

We steel and quality snobs will have to (and generally have) look elsewhere.
 
Originally posted by Keith Montgomery
They are willing to lose the educated customer that doesn't like the change to 420 in their effort to reduce costs.

Cold Steel will put some sort of spin on things to make it appear that their way of hardening the blade makes 420 much better than the steel it is replacing.
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My problem is that when I catch people putting huge spin on something, I simply feel like I must assume they are spinning me on other things I just haven't caught them on yet. So I suspect their motives.

Kinda like watching 60 minutes... once in a while, they'll run one of their spin pieces on a subject you know quite a bit about... and you can see through their hugely slanted reporting. Then, the whole thing is tainted... what are they spinning me this time on something I know little about? How do I separate the spun from the "fair and balanced" news story?

If I wanted a cheap folder (and I do, I own 4-5 I consider cheap), my preference is to go to someone who seems to be at least semi-respectable over the whole thing. Buck comes to mind. The Ka-Bar Dozier folder is a gem at $20. Kershaw vapor. Cheap Benchmade stuff (Ascent, etc). CRKT has some decent cheap knives (not a big fan of AUS-6 though). Spyderco's less expensive stuff is honest product.

Used knives at used prices are a better bargain that new cr@p at the same price. I'd much rather have a good lockup and a chafed/scratched up blade (e.g. used Griptilian) than a new POS with a mediocre lock in 420-whatever.
 
Originally posted by kapncake
It also seems that on a few of their knives they have gone to 440A sub-zero quench as in the recon 1 folder. It used to be AUS8A. I was going to purchase a recon at AUS8A but now in 440A, it's off my list unless someone has used this metal and can tell me the 440A Sub-Zero is anywhere near the quality of 8A.- Cant find any specs on the 440a SZ. Dave
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AUS-8 is a little better, but not a lot. If you like the knife, I wouldn't let 440A scare you away completely, if it's priced right.

To start with, it's 440A. That means:

0.65-0.75 carbon
16.00-18.00 chrome
1.00 Manganese
0.75 Molyb

Carbon level would, by itself, imply the hardness is only slightly limited...I'd guess Rc58 is attainable after temper. Need to see their specs of course. (to the extent Carbon goes into chrome carbides, you get at least some abrasion resistance).

Cryo: lots of hype out there. And benefits depend on the steel and the heat treat (quality, or quick/dirty) it got before cryo.

Amount of improvement depends on steel complexity... 440A and 420Mod/HC don't strike me as terribly complex.

I tend to find that RJ Martin is one of the guys you can trust on such matters. Here are a couple good posts:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=219930
Gentlemen: Here it is, plain and simple:
The more highly alloyed the steel, the more benefit from cryo. THis is because the higher the alloy content, the lower the Mf (Martensite Finish)temp. The colder you go, the more transformation you get. LN2 is capable of producing over 99% transformation in any knife steel that was properly heat treated to begin with. As to cooling rate, the "slow down", soak and "slow-up" cycles are to prevent thermal shock from uneven cooling in thicker parts, like cylinder blocks, etc.
Being thin, knife blades can generally be dunked right in with no ill effects, since they cool rapidly through their thickness.
A snap temper, or a full temper prior to cryo produces smaller grain size and reduces the thermal stress caused by the LN2 treatment.
Double tempering after cryo is the best. A single temper is a necessity.
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Here's a snippet from this thread:
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=107573
Sub zero treatment will benefit a blade made from virtually any material-some more than others, but all will benefit. There is hard evidence to support this.

With a steel such as ATS34, which is fairly highly alloyed, the Martensite Finish temperature is WAY below RT [room temperature].
Can you not sub zero heat treat? Sure.

Is it cheaper and easier not to sub-zero treat? Sure
Can you get "the right" Rc hardness without sub zero treatment? Yes.
Will cryogenic treatment enhance the properties and microstructure of the blade, regardless of how it was heat treated? DEFINITELY

One last tip-if the maker says it's cryogenically treated, ask them how it's done-LN2, -120F cold box, or just their ice-cream freezer! The colder the better-LN2 rules! (the freezer barely counts)

...I do know what works, and have personally experienced the remarkable effects of cryogenic treatment on tool steels. All my drill bits, end mills, carbide tools, etc get treated in my Dewars flask of LN2, and they last longer and cut better.

The more sophisticated the steel, the more you NEED to cryo treatment. And remember, you still need to know your stuff when it comes to the heat treatment itself.
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And, as always, hard to completely trust those who derive most of their income from cryo, due to the hype surrounding the whole thing. Those that use it at their expense, probably do so for performance reasons.

So, the big question is "how do you know the company you buy the cheap steel from still gives it a good heat treat". By using, others experience, or by reputation.

Example: Buck keeps Paul Bos on staff for this reason... he supervises but doesn't actually perform the heat treat on most of their product... from what I understand anyway.
 
I liked CS when they used kydex and AUS8A.

Their new stuff just seems too low quality.

In my eyes, the Swamp Rat Battle Rat and Camp Tramp has successfully eliminated the Cold Steel Trailmaster and Recon Scout from my list.

I never liked tantos or double edged fighters.

For folders, I prefer microtech, strider and chris reeve to any CS folder.

For cheapie folders, I would rather buy benchmade, buck, kabar or kershaw.

About the only cold steel product that I am seriously considering is the special forces shovel.
 
I could be wrong but I think Cold Steel actually contracts out all their manufacturing. I've read that their overly hyped Carbon V has actually been different steels over the years. More than likely they're concerned more with making a short term profit than building a high quality product. Whoever they have making knives for them this year must have a good, cheap supply of 420.
 
My main problem with CS has always been the way they run all other companies down. CS has some very unique (and affordable) products. They are NOT the best....never have been no matter what steel they have used. From where I stand, they have never been able to back up their own hype.

Paul
 
I own 1 CS knife, in CV, if you don't count their rubber trainers.

On the subject of 420 Knives Illustrated has an interesting spin on the whole thing, in the December '03 issue. They point out the reason people are moving to 420 steels is manufacturing issues, nothing to do with the apparently opposite extremes of High Quality vs Cheapness. The big steel companies are moving to reduce non-competitive brands, and droping steels the industry used to depend on. Or they produce these steels in a form that isn't acceptable to manufactures. At the same time the article points out that HT that is tailored batch by batch to the steel they receive can easily deal with this problem and turn out a superior product in 420. As long as the maker tests the steel for best HT, they can continue to make blades out of large runs of 420 stock at equal quality to those they previously made from other steels like 440C, whatever. The maker isn't focused on the price or quality of the steel, rather whether the quantities are available to feed their line. As long as they can turn out a good product from that steel all they are loosing is the reputation that was invested in building up various steels in the buyers mind. That's the case, for all those using 420s, not just CS (not sure they were even mentioned).

What I take from that is that if one wants to be a steel snob, one had better brush up on the bigger picture. To borrow an image from a different field, to be a wine conaiseur will in the future require more sophistication than being able to tell the screw tops from the wines in cardboard blader boxes.
 
kapncake - I picked up a Recon 1 in 8A for sixty bucks off e-bay a month or so ago. If you look for them they will be advertised as Japanese-made (8A) or Taiwanese-made (440A). Mine was pretty tight when new, but alot of playing and a little break-free have it real slick now. I'm real happy with mine.
 
Most of my steel experience is in aerospace - a field in which desired steel properties differ greatly from that in knives.

I have two CS knives: a 9" San Mai Magnum Tanto amd an R1 Military Classic (Randall #1 replica). Neither was purchased anywhere near Cold Steel's MSRP: $99 for the R1 and $148 for the Tanto, both new. They came out of the box razor sharp.

The R1 is marked "AUS8A MADE IN JAPAN". The Tanto is of two unknown steel specs but I believe both to be stainless. Probably a 420 series for the two outer layers (corrosion resistant and super tough) and AUS8A or 440B for the center (edge) layer.

The 420 "Sub Zero Quenched" they use on their cheaper blades is questionable at best.
 
Whatever Carbon V really is, I like it. I don't care if they called it, "Super Special Steel 2004". The stuff cuts like crazy and holds an edge.

However, I just ordered two Cold Steel knives in AUS-8--based on my experience with AUS-8 in Spyderco and CRKT knives. If they had been 440A, I would not have made the purchase.
 
I like Cold Steel because I always felt in the past that I was getting good bang for the buck. I like their designs. Also, I liked the steel they used to use, anyways; it seemed to have great edge sharpening and holding quality, especially for the $$.

If they are moving to a lesser quality steel, then I find this disappointing, and it will effect future purchases.

How long ago was this change made, anyways?

PAUL
 
I believe it was in 2001 or 2002. Definitely after 1950 and before now.

I have a hunch that 400 and 420 won't change much for the fully serrated Cold Steel models. My serrated Cold Steels cut through everything whereas my plain-edged ones waited until I got obsessive about sharpening before they developed aggression.
 
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