Is forging still worth it?

Cliff Stamp said:
If you want to know how a car handles do you ask your friend who owns and drives one, or do you go to the people who make and sell the car and ask them.
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Actually, that probably isn't a very good analogy. The makers of cars put them through a huge amount of handling tests and would know far more about how they handle than the average car owner that never get a car anywhere near its handling limits.

I think a better analogy would be - Would you rather get information on how a car handles from Jeff Gordon or from the fellas that made the car?
 
David:

Do you really believe that no one but a knifemaker is fit to evaluate knives?

Since I gave up making knives many years ago, did I give up my ability to judge a knife's quality at that time.

Calling Cliff names is not to the point. I do not always agree with Cliff, but, I have to respect the effort that he puts into his search for what ever he is looking for in knife quality. I think what Cliff does is far more important than the opinions of those judging the "Best or Worst dressed"

I AM NOT one to say "can't we all just get along" BUT, I do want to say that being polite when you are having a discussion is never a mistake.

I forged knives for twenty years, but gave it up when Bob Loveless introduced me to belt grinders in 1968. I continued to make stock removal knives until it became clear to me that I could never get near matching the quality of makers like Loveless and Dozier without spending four to ten times the amount of time and effort

Sorry about taking up so much of your time. A. G.
 
Keith Montgomery said:
The makers of cars put them through a huge amount of handling tests
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The guys that actually make them don't do the testing. Different people for different tasks. Who would you ask, the guy who designed it on the computer, the guy who made the first mock models, the guys on the line assembly, the guys who ran the robotic part of the assembly, or the guy who actually got in the car and drove it. Do you actually think they put the head of the design team in the car and see how it handles. Why would you have to know how the car works to know if it works. Get in it and drive it and see. The more actual driving you do with the more cars you use, the more information you would be able to offer.

-Cliff
 
What I have said about knives is based primarily on what I have done with them. Some of it is also based on materials science such as the references given in the above. Either of them are open to debate, which is why I am clear in what the information is based on.

-Cliff
 
A.G.,
Point taken, this shouldn't be about personalities. Whatever gross generalizations are made, in the end it's about making a better working knife. Do I believe Cliff is in the character assasination business? No, except he has little regard for one of my heros. And, he doesn't understand what Ed has done with 52100 in the last ten years.

I talked to Ed Fowler last night. I hope he doesn't mind me saying this... A test blade recently made by one of Ed's students (Eldon Perkins), specifically designed for it was made to withstand (without damage) 40 flexes (180 degree bends, each). From what I understand the knife also cut 400 cuts on hemp rope. At around 1/8" thick the bends took 60 lbs. of torque, each after the first bend which took 65 lbs. After the bends, the blade was too hot to hold in the hand. If you compare, honestly is that indicative of an inferior blade?

Keep in mind the test for your Master Smith, the single flex test. What is being done now far exceeds the past knives. That is my point. And I think a healthy level of respect is due to those who have devoted so much of their lives to this pursuit, don't judge so easily (or carelessly).
David
 
2knife said:
... (without damage) 40 flexes (180 degree bends, each). From what I understand the knife also cut 400 cuts on hemp rope. At around 1/8" thick the bends took 60 lbs. of torque, each after the first bend which took 65 lbs. After the bends, the blade was too hot to hold in the hand. If you compare, honestly is that indicative of an inferior blade?
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I have done over 2000 cuts on 3/8" hemp with a D2 blade without the force exceeding 20 lbs on the draw. Mel Sorg, 62 HRC, full cryo. Without a measure of sharpness the number is also meaningless as you can cut forever by just increasing the force, you need some way to quantify the sharpness. I never bothered to try it with CPM-15V, but it would be higher still. David Boye has done gazillion cuts on 1" hemp rope with his knives, Busse has done live demo's with thousands of cuts, retaining shaving sharpness for a *long* time.

Bending 180 degrees without damage means the knife returned to true with 100% resilence, no retained stress - fantasy. Now the knife probably didn't crack in half, which isn't surprising as the back is very soft and the knife heavily tapered, assuming it was made like Ed's. This also explains why it bent with 60 lbs of force (not torque) which is a very low amount of force. Any adult man would apply that and not know he did it. I bent a production ($75) Valiant Golok so that the blade went around and touched itself. It was essentially a 360 degree bend. I also did this with a cheap tramontina bowie, which was full hard at ~45 HRC (thin blade, 1/8", full distal taper).

As well there is no mention of how it was bent. Was this in the way Ed normally bends which is around a wooden block, or was it in the square jaws of a vice? Those are two very different senarios. In either case, if the spine is at least full spring hard (~45 hrc), and the bend is in a square jawed vice, then it is impressive, assuming the tapers don't reduce the steel cross section to significantly less than 1/8" in the bend areas of course. Phil Wilson has bent full hard S90V fillet knives to 90 degrees simply because they are thin. I bent a cheap full hard Ontario machete to 180 again because it was thin.

I also never understood why you would want anything to bend beyond 45 anyway, and going beyond 90 is just silly. What are you doing with the knife at that point. Would it not be much better to have it just get to 90 but take much more work to do so? Unless you want to be able to shape your $1000+ Pronghorn into the most expensive bowl carver on the planet I really don't see the sense in this. What is the purpose?

-Cliff
 
I just stumbled upon thread searching for something else, and have found the reading quite interesting in what people want to believe in, fact proven or not.

It works that way every day in all our lives, we all find things that we like and believe in, and it doesn't matter what someone else says or thinks about it, as it should be. There's always going to be someone with a different opinion of whats good or bad, so when someone tells you what they think of a particular item, do some research and make up your own mine.

I've been a full time knifemaker for about 6 years now and I forge all my knives. I don't know if a forged knife is better then a stock removel one or not. But what [Ed Schempp posted on page 3 is exactly why I do what I do.

As for Cliffs opinion on 90 degree bends I agree 100%, I do a great deal of testing on my blades and a 90 degree bend is one of them, but every time I do, my wife says, why do you do that, thats stupid. I just look at her and smile,and then say its fun. :confused:

Sorry for interrupting, carry on. ;)

Bill
 
Knives - Forged or stock removal, I like them all. Some work better than others for any given task, but I still collect and use them because I like them.

For me, forged knives are like Loch Ness. Now we can argue all day about whether or not a monster swims the waters of Loch Ness. Some will have claimed to have seen it, researchers will point to the lack of objective evidence for the monster's existence, but every one of them will feel the hair stand up on the back of their necks if they hear a splash in the night.

It does not matter if Loch Ness holds a monster in its depths. It's the idea that makes the lake more interesting than it would be otherwise.

I like the idea that forging adds something intangible to the knife, somehow imbues the steel with magical properties. The science is great, it has vastly improved all of our lives, but to paraphrase Shakespeare, "There are more things under forge and grinding belt than exist in your philosphy."

Or, in the common vernacular, "Don't confiuse me with the facts." Just make me another knife. :)
 
I've reread some of this thread. I am sorry for losing my temper w/ Cliff and statements I made.. With personal remarks, I feel Ed Fowler has done more to encourage my interest in knives than anyone I know. It is always hard for me to take someone so critical, like Cliff. I should leave him to do his science and make his statements, wherever his conclusions lead.

Steven you present very good arguments for "craft" and the value of any "individuality" in knife making. There will surely be knives that cut better or worse. Critics cannot take away or recreate someone's artistry with arguements. This thread was about forging and stock removal, which is a process.. And, so I'll leave that to the experts.
David
 
knife saber said:
I would imagine that for longer blades it's just more convenient to start with round bar stock, rather than getting yourself a stash of 30 inch+ long flat stock. There's also the traditional element working in swords.
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Admiral Steel has 36" bars of A2 stock suitable for swords for sale at about $30 a bar. They are stackable, and relatively easy to handle;) . I used one recently for a parrying dagger(18" blade, 25" overall - all stock removal and all a pain in the keester due to the very thin taper at the point) And used a wide enough piece to have some left to make a second dagger. Very little steel 'wasted'.

As for Keith: Cliff said "Common". It is effortless to find very finely crafted knives in the $3,000 range, let alone the $1,000. Why? Because they are quite common - just not so common as $500, is all.

Chuck - Aren't many competition engines and pistons made from forged billets? I haven't made many hi po engines, but I do recall forged pistons being less brittle and cracking less often - something about higher silicon content. The shop I worked at used nothing but Wiseco forged pistons after having bad experiences with other forged and non-forged. Shrug. At the time(15 years ago), they were also lighter. That may be different now. A friend I used to work with now is a mechanic on a top fuel drag boat team. They used forged everything AND titanium in their 500 CID blown Hemi V8's. I think this is one of their boats: http://www.dragboats.com/gallery/picture_detail.php?PictureID=6040&RecID=8 And here's a cool movie clip: http://www.sdbaracing.com/media/motorsportssmall1.wmv

A lot of engine, and not much else...

BTW, Chuck, I never considered belts into the knife-cost equation until I started using Titanium! Ugh! I tried to do a 'quick' bevel on the titanium guard for one of my parrying daggers and ended up doing a quicker job at smoothing out my belt, which I would guess is much closer to 600 grit now than 120. I now reserve my 4"X36" sander for titanium work in order to make 'em last long enough to get anything done. At least I haven't had a titanium fire...yet...
Suggest any belts for my 4X36, Chuck?

Wetdogg and Nick - I wear my cowboy hat, but rarely when grinding. I'd end up sweating all over it and making it dirty(er). Nick - I know what ya mean by forging. However, after making an 18" dagger using stock removal, I find it absolutely empowering. Afterall, nearly ALL creative artisans that sculpt use stock removal(take a piece of wood, metal, etc. and carve away everything that doesn't look like an elephant etc.) - and I am sure they feel very in tune and at one with their work. I feel the same way. I shaped it, formed it, and cut and ground away everything that wasn't a dagger and made it into a blade of MY design and MY liking. All in an air conditioned garage with a tv set. ;) Thank God for that TV set - otherwise I am too tempted to keep on grinding when I get frustrated when I really should take a time out.
You start with a rod, I use a bar.

BTW, if I lived in western Washington, I too would likely favor forging ;)

God bless Texas!

Cherokee WYK
Georgetown, TX
 
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