Is GEC the only game in town for you?

[supratentorial]

...my intention was not to assert that GEC is somehow "better" than everyone else....

It does seem that you are asserting exactly what you say you aren't asserting.

I love GEC ...but I feel like Queen and Case are just not producing knives on the same level as GEC. The quality is just significantly lower, below a level I can accept for the money...

But this subject comes up often.... it will probably come up again next week.

A detailed discussion about the meaning of quality and how knives are manufactured would be more useful. I think there are a lot of misunderstandings that lead to incorrect conclusions. The over inflated importance of centered blades was one example, that I gave on page 2. An example that I gave a couple days ago was that flush springs is a manufacturing artifact from grinding the backs during hafting. Victorinox finishes springs and covers separately so the springs are not flush. It has more to do with differences in manufacturing than quality. One can never really understand the meaning of quality without understanding how something is made.

 

[mbp]

It does seem that you are asserting exactly what you say you aren't asserting.

"Better" means objectively better. I thought I made it clear that my preference for GEC is a matter of opinion, not fact. It's an individual, subjective judgment--what is a knife worth to me? Is it worth its retail price? Do I like it enough to buy it, carry it, and keep it?

But this subject comes up often.... it will probably come up again next week.

A detailed discussion about the meaning of quality and how knives are manufactured would be more useful. I think there are a lot of misunderstandings that lead to incorrect conclusions. The over inflated importance of centered blades was one example, that I gave on page 2. An example that I gave a couple days ago was that flush springs is a manufacturing artifact from grinding the backs during hafting. Victorinox finishes springs and covers separately so the springs are not flush. It has more to do with differences in manufacturing than quality. One can never really understand the meaning of quality without understanding how something is made.

I can see why you misunderstood my post. You are again talking about matters of personal value as if they are objective. If a person wants a centered blade, that is their call, not yours. Saying the importance of a centered blade is "over inflated" is a nonsensical.

There may be widely-agreed-upon standards of what makes a knife "well-made," but those are not binding on a person's preferences. Some people just won't tolerate blade rub on a multi-blade knife, even though I think if you asked Bill Howard he'd say a bit of rub is not a problem in the slightest.

Even Bill Howard (much less you) doesn't get to tell us what we like and don't like, value and don't value, in a knife.

 

[DrPenguin]

GEC makes great knives. No question. And I think it is easier to order online with their very well deserved rep for quality.

But, you knew it was coming, they very seldom make a knife that I am even slightly interested in anymore. I know those boys hit a hold mine when they came out with the Mountain Man Trapper when they were back at Queen. I get that. I also get that this style of knife has helped them deal with the one blade modern folder that has decimated the traditional market.

But look at their offerings the last few years. Large MMTs. Small MMTs. Medium MMTs. Locking MMTs. Slip joint MMTs. 2 blade MMTs. Single blade MMTs. And once in a great while something else. They're in a rut.

They might be making great stuff but I'm not interested in 99% of it. I bought a couple Mountain Man Trappers from Queen over a decade ago. I'm not interested in filling a drawer with a bunch more.

That said I do carry a GEC knife every day. Its just that they don't make much that interests me anymore.

Will

 

[supratentorial]

You are again talking about matters of personal value as if they are objective.

Queen and Case are just not producing knives on the same level as GEC. The quality is just significantly lower, below a level I can accept for the money.

In that case, I would say you were presenting your personal values as objective. But I do understand it is your opinion.

What tickles one's fancy is different than "quality". There can be different preferences but "quality" is heavily tied to manufacturing. That was my point. I wasn't trying to argue about your post. A similar post will come up next week Discussion about the meaning of quality and the manufacturing will be more helpful, in my opinion, instead of denouncing everything except GEC. GEC has a three very nice videos on the Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/user/GreatEasternCutlery/videos There are also some nice videos of the manufacturing at Case, Queen, Victorinox, Nontron, Opinel, Otter Messer, and others.

 

[22-rimfire]

For me, GEC isn't the only, but it's the most.

Long ago, my first traditional was a KaBar coppersmith small lockback. It was terrible for a bunch of reasons. Then the GEC I tried was much better, and it's what I went to when I came back to traditionals.

As of now, I've got 5 GECs and 1 Queen. GEC are relatively easy to get if I follow the production schedule and this subforum, at least so far. I've been happy with every GEC I've bought so far except for one Cap Lifter that was way too tight and had too much of the blade sharpened away from the factory. Apart from that, each one hasn't seemed off in any way.

The great thing with non-GEC though, is that you can actually find a Barlow...

GEC is not the only game in the traditional market. It took me a couple years to warm up to GEC product mostly due to the price. My first GEC was a nail breaker and it took a year before I was willing to consider another. I don't get too bothered if a particular offering sells out as there is always another one coming up as long as they stay in business. I do not participate in the secondary market. I own around 20 GEC made traditional knives. (I wouldn't even know that if I didn't start a list a year or so ago.) I own enough diversity that if GEC ceased doing business tomorrow, I'd be comfortable for the rest of my life in terms of available user knives.

Of the recent GEC offerings, I think the #14 Lick Creek Boys knife and the #48's come close to "perfection" for a factory knife.

Queen/S&M is the other dominant game and of the ones I have purchased, I have been pleased. Case.... well..., I won't buy one of their knives unless I do it in person and handle/inspect it... Buck produces primarily "users" like the old Camillus and the old Schrade stuff with predictable good quality at modest prices. Other companies that focus on modern knives are noticing the apparent demand for well made traditionals and are beginning to respond with semi-traditionals such as from Boker, the new Proper by Benchmade, LionSTEEL, and of course Cold Steel. This will improve the overall traditional market in terms of quality overall with time. Essentially these are traditional knives with a modern touch and often billed as "gentleman's knives".

 

[mbp]

In that case, I would say you were presenting your personal values as objective. But I do understand it is your opinion.

What tickles one's fancy is different than "quality"

You make a good point on that one. I do agree with you that there are certain things that call a knife out as quality or not... just that people might care about certain things more or less.

A non-centered blade doesn't bother me as long as it's not rubbing the liner. The things that do bother me personally are uneven grinds, bad fit of covers to liners/bolsters, (big) backspring gaps, things like that.

IMO I don't want to see that stuff at the price Queen is charging, just as an example. BUT, for someone else, maybe they're not bothered as much by that and they find the steel "upgrade" to D2 to be worth it.

 

[jc57]

GEC makes a nice product at a fair price. I have a couple of GECs made before their prices climbed and they became so wildly popular. But what they make is not what I am looking for. I'm really not interested in paying what for me is big bucks for a knife with carbon steel blades. They just aren't my thing. And most of the GEC stainless patterns are oddities to me. Again. not interested. You know, if they ever made a 66 stockman in stainless I'd try for one

This pretty much summarizes my current thoughts on GEC.

 

[jrawk]

Being blind to other brands will cause you to miss out on a huge assortment of awesome production knives.

However i'd like to (attempt to) correct the record regarding RETAIL price points and value... (i'll try to keep this post compliant to the rules)... i find the majority of new Queen made knives equal to or higher than new GEC prices on websites that offer both brands with same/similar materials. My dirty dollar will always go to the brand that has better quality control. And in my experiences 4 out of 5 GEC knives trend above "average" in quality, as apposed to only 1 out of 5 Queen knives trending above average in quality, including the much more expensive Tuna Valley, Trestle Pine, and Northwood. Sure, better steel/materials == higher pricing, but the quality control is still poor to average in my personal experience.

That said, i will continue to purchase both Queen and GEC, but when i click the purchase button i have less hesitation with GEC than i do Queen. The Case and Boker i buy are more or less impulsive and typically a pattern i have not had in hand yet. Every day i open these forums hoping to see something about Canal Street resurrecting. Or Bark River or other brand expanding into slip-joints. Those days are coming. It's inevitable as everything old becomes new again.

 

[jc57]

Shame about Canal Street. I do think there is a niche in the market right now for what I would call "GEC quality traditionals with stainless and/or modern steels". That was kind of Canal Street's thing for a while. Though maybe that niche just isn't large enough to sustain an entire company.

 

[sticktodrum]

Maybe the LionSteel piece will be the start of something great in production traditionals, and further fill the landscape in.

 

[Pomsbz]

I think Lionsteel's foray into traditional, even just with the Euro Barlow which is a limited run SFO is a step into the right direction as others have mentioned. Large companies with established reputations running a couple of traditional offerings along side their other lines. That way they are not beholden to the market being fickle, to SFO's (necessarily) or a general lack of funding/machinery/trained personnel. Benchmade also brought out a slipjoint recently, it was ugly but it was a start. I'm far more excited looking to the future than catering to nostalgia for the past in a collector market with barely any competition and companies doing runs of models rarely repeated on worn out machinery. What makes the traditional such a good pocket knife (small size, blades, slicing ability, beauty and elegance, legality, pocketability, etc) can be done without the constant reference to the past. It's getting old (pardon the pun).

 

[mrknife]

Not the only game by a long shot! I have carried old Case Tested, and Case XX knives, and enjoyed them immensely. If you are patient you can find a good one for way less dollars than a new GEC. They are hanging around waiting to be carried again!!

I have a strawberry bone Robeson Barlow from after WWII, that is wonderful!

But that Stag Clip Bladeforums knife GEC made a couple/few years ago is everything I want in a knife! And it's a factory second!!

And the Tomato Acrylic Congress with semi-sunk joints by GEC is mesmerizing to look at with no danger of gassing out! And the perfectly treated blades are getting antiquey-looking and hold a sharp edge!
And those last two were made by people I know, respect and trust! I have contributed to their livelihood!

There are endless knives to own and experience. If they cost too much, pass, because there will be another one calling "pick me, pick me " soon enough!

2014 Bladeforums jack is best bladeforums knife ever!!!! i one time ended up with three of them. and the hunt was tough, always missed them by a few minutes. i do wonder if that knife in the gec history book is the inspiration for it

 

[mrknife]

Nope, not at all. Although a majority of my collection does consist of GEC, I do buy CSC, Queen, and Schatt and Morgan traditionals when I see something I like. Typically very particular to single blade trappers/sleeveboard/teardrop patterns (15,48,77s). Lately I have dipped a toe into the waters that is custom traditionals and have found myself not very impressed and have been letting them go slowly. I suppose Im not just not at the point that I know how to appreciate a custom traditional knife. Production still does it for me.

 

[supratentorial]

...What makes the traditional such a good pocket knife (small size, blades, slicing ability, beauty and elegance, legality, pocketability, etc) can be done without the constant reference to the past. It's getting old (pardon the pun).

It seems like a lot of new collectors aren't interested in history. There's no right or wrong to collecting. But I would say that the meaning of "traditional" is tied to history. I would also say that it would be much easier for manufacturers, like Benchmade, to be successful if they had a better knowledge of history. It seems like there are an awful lot of misses and mistakes that would never have been made if that was the case. A lot of things were worked out really well 100 years ago. It would be a shame for manufacturers to ignore this history. As a user, it doesn't really matter at all. You can cut something without understanding the last 100 years of knife manufacturing.

 

[blademan 13]

Not necessarily, but they are close. While I have far more GEC's than any other brand, I still love vintage knives. As much as I respect GEC, they still have not shown me that they can produce a knife with the precision, detail and level of feel equivalent to the Empires, NYKC, Schrade, Case Tested, Joseph Rodgers or many others of the past. Especially in the realm of penknives, small whittlers/stockmen, lobsters and other so called "gentlemen's" knives. Not even close. So I look to vintage knives if I want a knife with these qualities.

GEC continues to offer new patterns and variations, premium cover options, crisp blade grinds and swedges, firm action, long pulls, pinned shields and carbon steel blades. All things I prioritize in my knife selection process. Their strong resale value also eases the pain in the rare case of buyer's remorse.

I really like a good SAK and have many patterns in Alox but how many of the same model do I need with just a different colored handle? Now if they made a Ram's horn Pioneer with carbon blades, sign me up! But sadly, they don't....

I have a few Queen knives and love their D2 when it comes on a thinly ground blade in a well built knife. Unfortunately their product consistency is just not there to justify purchase sight unseen. Also there is the same old patterns using the same cover materials across the line. They have recently started to experiment but the ones I purchased were returned for substandard quality.

I have a few modern Case knives but the fact that I prefer their "as ground" blades to the typical over polished offerings as well as favoring carbon over tru sharp, severely limits one's choices. While they do offer a wide variety of cover materials on most patterns, there are very few that catch my eye. I am on the fence with the new Tribal lock back. If this had an "as ground" CV blade with nice stag handles, I would buy a pair and perhaps more if you add in a nicely finished wood or red bone like they used to make red bone. One man's opinion.

The inexpensive imported knives do nothing for me. Not because they are not nice knives offering great value, but when considering dropping $10-$20 on a new knife my thoughts always turn to picking up a nice used Old Timer as they are better meet my selection criteria.

So GEC is at the top of my list when looking for a new knife. At this point I have more knives than I could ever use up and have no real reason to buy a knife other than I want another one. I think they offer a lot of knife for the money and are a good value when bought new. Relying on the secondary market is a little more complicated. Most models you can find at or below the original selling prices while rare or highly coveted models can bring 100% premium or more. Simple supply and demand pricing at work and nothing that will likely change in the near future. I am disgusted by the intentional profiteering that goes on but could care less if someone finds themselves turning a profit selling a knife down the road. Not my circus, not my monkey.

In the end, anyone reading this post must be considered as a knife hobbyist. And as with any hobby, it should be fun and bring enjoyment to you. If it does not, time to find a new hobby. Enjoy your choices and at the same time be willing to accept other's as well.

 

[mbp]

It seems like a lot of new collectors aren't interested in history. There's no right or wrong to collecting. But I would say that the meaning of "traditional" is tied to history. I would also say that it would be much easier for manufacturers, like Benchmade, to be successful if they had a better knowledge of history. It seems like there are an awful lot of misses and mistakes that would never have been made if that was the case. A lot of things were worked out really well 100 years ago. It would be a shame for manufacturers to ignore this history. As a user, it doesn't really matter at all. You can cut something without understanding the last 100 years of knife manufacturing.

Good post. One of the big questions for me (and this might not be something you were referring to) is how modern knives ended up being ground so thick. 100 years ago manufacturers understood knives were for slicing and ground them accordingly. At some point between then and now knives started getting thicker. Now, even the gold standard Sebenza has (what I would describe as) unnecessarily thick stock.

It's interesting to me how many people now pair a modern knife with a traditional, for the stated purpose that the traditional slices better and the modern is for "hard use." If the traditional slices better, why are you carrying that folding prybar to begin with?? (I kid, I kid. Another matter of personal taste)

 

[Old Engineer]

GEC is not the only game in town for me and will most likely never be . They do not make enough of the desirable to me knives to fill my desires to buy . I know they make the best one out there and I have some of them and will continue to buy them . I also like Old Traditionals and I would like to acquire patterns that I do not have and many of them are not and never will be made by GEC .

Harry

 

[Jack Black]

It seems like a lot of new collectors aren't interested in history. There's no right or wrong to collecting. But I would say that the meaning of "traditional" is tied to history. I would also say that it would be much easier for manufacturers, like Benchmade, to be successful if they had a better knowledge of history. It seems like there are an awful lot of misses and mistakes that would never have been made if that was the case. A lot of things were worked out really well 100 years ago. It would be a shame for manufacturers to ignore this history. As a user, it doesn't really matter at all. You can cut something without understanding the last 100 years of knife manufacturing.

Well said Jake

 

[supratentorial]

Thanks, Jack !

Good post. One of the big questions for me (and this might not be something you were referring to) is how modern knives ended up being ground so thick. 100 years ago manufacturers understood knives were for slicing and ground them accordingly. At some point between then and now knives started getting thicker. Now, even the gold standard Sebenza has (what I would describe as) unnecessarily thick stock.

It's interesting to me how many people now pair a modern knife with a traditional, for the stated purpose that the traditional slices better and the modern is for "hard use." If the traditional slices better, why are you carrying that folding prybar to begin with?? (I kid, I kid. Another matter of personal taste)

Haha!

Thick blades and saber grinds have been around for over 100 years but they didn't dominate like today. 100 years ago, some knives were advertised as being thick and strong for cutting wood and others were advertised as good for slicing. Now folks buy knives that are thick enough to pierce the side of a tank without breaking and then go online and post still life photos of the knives cutting apples. There's certainly a place for it (like combat) but for many folks it's unnecessary or even counter productive. I think the recent popularity of the full flat grinds by Spyderco shows it.

I think a thin full flat ground blade would be better on the new Benchmade slipjoint.... as well as their "valet" gentleman's modern knife.

I'd love to see Benchmade and Spyderco make an exact replica of the Remington folding hunter but with modern cover materials, construction and steel. I think it would be a success for them.

 

[Buzzbait]

Not necessarily, but they are close. While I have far more GEC's than any other brand, I still love vintage knives. As much as I respect GEC, they still have not shown me that they can produce a knife with the precision, detail and level of feel equivalent to the Empires, NYKC, Schrade, Case Tested, Joseph Rodgers or many others of the past. Especially in the realm of penknives, small whittlers/stockmen, lobsters and other so called "gentlemen's" knives. Not even close. So I look to vintage knives if I want a knife with these qualities.

GEC continues to offer new patterns and variations, premium cover options, crisp blade grinds and swedges, firm action, long pulls, pinned shields and carbon steel blades. All things I prioritize in my knife selection process. Their strong resale value also eases the pain in the rare case of buyer's remorse.

I really like a good SAK and have many patterns in Alox but how many of the same model do I need with just a different colored handle? Now if they made a Ram's horn Pioneer with carbon blades, sign me up! But sadly, they don't....

I have a few Queen knives and love their D2 when it comes on a thinly ground blade in a well built knife. Unfortunately their product consistency is just not there to justify purchase sight unseen. Also there is the same old patterns using the same cover materials across the line. They have recently started to experiment but the ones I purchased were returned for substandard quality.

I have a few modern Case knives but the fact that I prefer their "as ground" blades to the typical over polished offerings as well as favoring carbon over tru sharp, severely limits one's choices. While they do offer a wide variety of cover materials on most patterns, there are very few that catch my eye. I am on the fence with the new Tribal lock back. If this had an "as ground" CV blade with nice stag handles, I would buy a pair and perhaps more if you add in a nicely finished wood or red bone like they used to make red bone. One man's opinion.

The inexpensive imported knives do nothing for me. Not because they are not nice knives offering great value, but when considering dropping $10-$20 on a new knife my thoughts always turn to picking up a nice used Old Timer as they are better meet my selection criteria.

So GEC is at the top of my list when looking for a new knife. At this point I have more knives than I could ever use up and have no real reason to buy a knife other than I want another one. I think they offer a lot of knife for the money and are a good value when bought new. Relying on the secondary market is a little more complicated. Most models you can find at or below the original selling prices while rare or highly coveted models can bring 100% premium or more. Simple supply and demand pricing at work and nothing that will likely change in the near future. I am disgusted by the intentional profiteering that goes on but could care less if someone finds themselves turning a profit selling a knife down the road. Not my circus, not my monkey.

In the end, anyone reading this post must be considered as a knife hobbyist. And as with any hobby, it should be fun and bring enjoyment to you. If it does not, time to find a new hobby. Enjoy your choices and at the same time be willing to accept other's as well.

Wow. Well said on all points!