Is Hermann Oak Worth The Price?

[redsquid2]

I'm not a pro at making sheaths, but I do find it satisfying.

I included a piece of Hermann Oak in my order from Springfield today. 12" X 24" for $26 = $13/ft.

The other piece I ordered was the no-name #2 shoulder for $5.79/ft.

That is more than twice the price for the Hermann Oak versus the #2 shoulder, but I had to get my hands on some, since I had never used any.

Is it good stuff? Is there something better out there?

Thanks.

 

[sheathmaker]

I don't know, but your number 2 shoulder was probably import leather…..maybe not, but probably. I haven't used Hermann Oak in years, but when I was making saddles it was the go to leather for a very long time. Then I found Wickett&Craig Tannery and they have been my source for the past 5 or 6 years.

Buying dimensional cuts of leather is the very most expensive way to buy unless you only need 2 square feet and never plan to make anything else out of leather. I haven't checked on H Oak lately, but it appears you paid just about double per foot what a side would cost per foot, but you only spent $26 and a side would average costing you about $150 or so delivered. It would also be about 21 to 25 square feet.

Forgot to answer your question….Yes it's worth the difference in price because it is USA hides and USA tanning, but small dimensional pieces is not the best way to buy. There are also a couple of Mexican tanneries that were putting out some really decent leather, but I don't have any idea who is carrying it or if their quality has remained high.

Paul

 

[Brommeland]

Hermann Oak is the current world standard for veg tanned leather....

 

[Omega Leather Works]

Well, I can't really say much because I don't have a lot of experience, but the HO leather that I bought is working well for me.

I have two other examples of veg tanned, one bought at a discount at Tandy (total crap, but good for practicing tooling), and some pieces that came in a kit for making small items, including a long belt. This stuff is a little lighter weight than my HO so it feels a little more supple. I'm cutting up the belt for making danglers and straps.

The biggest difference that I can see between the belt leather and the HO is the quality of the flesh side. Hairy nap, needs more sanding on the cheap stuff. The HO is ready to rock, although I do wipe all of it down with iso alcohol before dyeing.

Hopefully you'll get a good piece. The one Springfield sent me had some marks but they immediately replaced it with a new piece so I ended up with about twice the leather. If I don't buy a side or double shoulder, I'll buy from them again.

 

[Horsewright]

Weaver carries Chahin and Hide House has a premium import. Both are pretty good Mexican leather. I use HO from Weaver as they do a lot of clicker cutting for me and I use HO in these clicker cut items. I also buy several sides uncut from them time to time. I try to keep a side of 5/6 oz, a side of 7/8 oz and a side of 9/10 oz on hand most of the time. These pretty much will cover whatever I'm making. I pay $7.67 (average) a ft for it so comes out to about $190 a side. I will also sometimes get it from Sheridan Leather supply but they are a little more spendy running about $220 a side. The wife and I were discussing this morning maybe switching to Wickett and Craig. Years ago I strictly used HO and then quit em as the quality was inconsistent. Went back to them several years ago and been humming along. However some of my last few sides haven't been very great. When I pay for premium leather I want premium leather. I haven't always got that from HO and I'm pretty easy to get along with.

 

[sheathmaker]

Hermann Oak is the current world standard for veg tanned leather....[/QUOTE

……..and your source for that little gem of wisdom is???????????

I left HO years ago for the same reason Horsewright did. Inconsistent quality, and I haven't been back.

Paul

 

[Omega Leather Works]

Hermann Oak is the current world standard for veg tanned leather....[/QUOTE

……..and your source for that little gem of wisdom is???????????

I left HO years ago for the same reason Horsewright did. Inconsistent quality, and I haven't been back.

Paul

Source? Probably HO.

I have read (so NOT first hand experience), on a leather specific forum, that some of the leather workers were also getting inconsistent pieces of HO. The thing is that in almost every case, it was coming from Springfield. I really hate to say that because I feel a debt of gratitude to Springfield for handling my order so well. That said, I feel that sharing that is more important.

In every case that I read about, the lower than expected quality leather ordered from Springfield was replaced. The advice given for those continuing to order from them was to call ahead and request a hand selected piece. I'm not sure that Springfield even does that, but I plan to follow the advice if/when I buy another square.

 

[Horsewright]

Naw, I've never ordered from Springfield. I've had inconsistent HO from four different sources.

 

[leatherman]

Just reinforces my drive to pick my own leather, bar none, I dont really want to trust someone else to pick my sides and shoulders. Been burned too many times. From quite a few vendors. If I dont find what I want, I walk away.

 

[Horsewright]

You are fortunate to be able to do so. Very fortunate. Hide House is about a six hour drive from here, that would be the closest place I could shop in person. Most hides around here are being used by the original owners.

 

[redsquid2]

Just reinforces my drive to pick my own leather, bar none, I dont really want to trust someone else to pick my sides and shoulders. Been burned too many times. From quite a few vendors. If I dont find what I want, I walk away.

Next time I get leather, I'll do some research. There may be a brick and mortar store in the Chicago area. Much better than ordering online.

 

[sheathmaker]

redsquid2: There is a Tandy/Leather Factory store in Elgin. Toll free 1 800 836 6853

Paul

 

[sheathmaker]

First of all there is a big difference between the hobbyist or casual maker and the full time or "pro" maker when it comes to buying leather. Economy of scale and business personal relationships come into play because of the frequency of orders, quantity ordered, and any special considerations you may want such as split service etc.

The casual maker or hobbyist generally doesn't buy enough, often enough to really establish the one on one relationship which helps to insure that you get the type and quality leather you expect, and that is why many people insist on going into the facility and picking their own leather.

I have a long standing relationship with Glen Proud at Wicket&Craig. He knows from long experience, frequent orders of sizable quantities what I want and expect, and he does a good job of fulfilling my expectations. I don't buy as much as I used to. I would guess I don't buy much more than 15 sides a year now, but even at that it's probably a lot more than the hobbyist is buying.

The more leather you buy, the less the effect of a bad couple of square feet here and there. I would guess that between "off fall" cuts, bellies and and an occasional bad spot that only about 70% of any given side winds up as useful and good enough to sell.

Paul

 

[Brommeland]

Source? Probably HO.

This is an example of the Internet's down side - anyone can say anything without having any idea of what they are talking about.....

I've run one of the world's top custom holster shops for 30 years and Hermann Oak has overall been the industry standard for veg tanned leather, particularly since all of their major competitors have closed down. It is true that their QC is way off, and I do not get anything near the quality that I once did. However, the fault is not entirely theirs.

Because of last summer's drought out west, and then a super harsh winter, the cattle producers could not feed their stock. The result has been the single largest cattle kill in American history since late last summer/early fall. The cattle herds are now about the same size they were in 1950 - when we had less than half of the current human population to feed. This is why beef prices were so cheap 6 months ago, and are now skyrocketing.

What this means for the leather industry is that many of the current tannage hides are coming from immature animals. They never had the chance to develop their full natural thickness and density because some of these animals went to the slaughterhouse well under a year old. So, I am seeing softer, spongier material and leather with relatively poor molding characteristics when compared to times past. However, I am not seeing anything better from W&C, or the Mexican tanners who typically buy American hides.

I gotta tell you that I long for the days when I could choose from Hermann Oak, West Tan, Johnson leather, Virginia Oak, Scholtz, Cauldwell Mosier, Muir McDonald and W&C - all of whom were all turning out better leather than is available today. However, slamming HO without knowing anything about this industry is pretty damn unfair.

 

[sheathmaker]

I bow to your experience and knowledge, and everything you posted is true and right on the money, about herd conditions, age at slaughter etc. None of the tanneries are able to put out the quality we used to get, I guess, but Hermann Oak QC started to slip pretty badly quite some time ago. The reason their slip was so very noticeable is precisely because they had been the gold standard for so long.

Now, as to your comment about the internet and "anyone can say anything without having any idea what they are talking about"……I've been at this since 1951, bought my first side of leather at Tandy, in El Paso, Texas for, if I recall, $10. Now I have no way of knowing for sure, but I bet I've been at it just about as long as you have……maybe even a tad longer.

Best regards,

Paul

 

[Omega Leather Works]

Wow, my sincere apologies for what I wrote. I certainly didn't mean to disrespect anyone, or any company. I feel like most anyone that reads my posts will quickly realize that I'm new to leather working. I was making a little joke, but I didn't mean to do it at anyone's expense.

Aside from my ill placed comment, I've tried to explain my experience, and also explain what I've seen happen with others. I feel that sharing your own and others experiences is critical. I appreciate your added insight into the industry. I'm very interested in these things. Unfortunately, the west coast has experienced the worst drought in my memory, so I assume that means we can expect more of the same as time goes by? I work in an industry that has very close ties to dairy and it's definitely been a challenging time for us.

As for the companies that I've mentioned, I just watched a Weaver video that shows the HO plant, and their tanning process. I was actually sewing some HO leather as I watched and it gave me a much better appreciation for the product in my hands. I recommend anyone interested to look up the video on YouTube.

As for Springfield, I also have a big admiration for their services. Kevin, though I don't know him other than through the exchange of a few emails, talking with others about him and his company, and enjoying his videos, has shown a rare commitment to customer service and respect for knifemakers and leather workers. A few hours ago I placed another big (for me) order from Springfield. I had a bunch of items in my Tandy basket since a lot of their products are on sale, but then I thought about how good Springfield has been to me. I went to their site and ordered all of those same items. The funny thing is that the total was less than the sale prices at Tandy. I have no disrespect for Tandy either, although I do think their pricing could be a little more aggressive on some things.

In any case, I hope that you accept my apology. I certainly didn't mean to step on your toes, or come across as a know it all. Believe me, I'll be the first to point out that I have nearly everything to learn about this side of of an overall hobby that I hold near and dear to my heart.

 

[Skystorm]

HO is all we use for sheaths and I have tried I think just about every single leather worth bothering to buy in the last few years. It tools and molds extremely well, dyes even and has very little waste. I buy mine directly from them 20 sides at a time and they always send me top notch stuff.
It helps if you take the time to maintain relationships with people and business. I don't expect them to have a guy wade through 50000 different hides to find me the best 20 and they don't expect me to settle for anything less than a top quality hide. Weaver is also a good place to get about anything, they will bend over backwards to get you anything you want. They will also build you just about any machine you can think of. Unfortunately I can think of lots of things.

Wickett and Craig and their customer service can bite my little gnome buttcheek. Lots of people like them and have good experiences. Mine have all been from bad to wanting to burn their building down bad, they will never see another dime from me.

 

[Brommeland]

Hey Guys,

I'm not offended by what anyone said except maybe for the implication that I am a shill for HO. Likewise, I apologize if I have offended anyone.

While they (HO) are doing the very best that they can do with what they have to work with, I agree with you. I have been having supply problems with them for about 7 years or so. It's just gotten really bad in the past six months. My experiences with W&C have been much worse. If y'all have a "door number 3", I'm all ears....

 

[Brommeland]

Wickett and Craig and their customer service can bite my little gnome buttcheek. Lots of people like them and have good experiences. Mine have all been from bad to wanting to burn their building down bad, they will never see another dime from me.

Yeah, I've got something that Glen can bite as well. A colossal anal orifice, IMHO - and that is the very best thing that I can say about him....

 

[Omega Leather Works]

Very surprised to read the last two (edit-er... make that 3. Last one eeked by me!) posts...

Btw, Skyler, I checked out your website last night. Very cool! Just going by your willingness to help us out in the Fiddleback forum, I figured you were a hobbyist. Clearly that is not the case. Should have known better when I saw the pic of your wall of clicker dies!