Yup whatever the sheriff says gives you the authority to violate the law. NOT!
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Is it legal to use throwing knives in my backyard in NYC?
- Thread starter coolduderules
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Yup whatever the sheriff says gives you the authority to violate the law. NOT!
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The quote is regarding the cop's interpretation of existing law. It's not saying he can tell you a lot of random bs.
Also if you or a reasonable person would know the sheriff is wrong you can't just say but he told me so.
If however I don't know if I can shoot a bow within city limits or if it's considered a firearm and the Sheriff tells me it's not a firearm and as long as I don't shoot into my neighbors yard and have a backdrop it's all legal. I guess then it's fine.
The question is whether the sheriff is a person named in the statute as an official charged with interpreting the law. That is NOT part of the sheriff's duties. The sheriff is charged with enforcing the law but not interpreting or administering it. Yes this stuff can be complicated but it is the same as any other profession, whether it be the practice of medicine, dentistry or accountancy. Yeah many folks are capable of reading the "words" but unless you are trained in the field your opinion is not worth much. I would not open a medical textbook and purport to advise anyone about their condition but for some reason we have a subforum wherein folks rely upon people with no legal training to provide advice on the law.
In the knife rights law suit with NYC the ADA had responded to several of the persons charged with a gravity knife that if they could provide the names of the officers that told them that exact knife was legal then it would be a defense. The written law states this clearly. We sub meter several retail and office tenants and even have our own ESCO, and yes you are correct that unlike the utility company we can not shut off those services as they are a part of rent, and the court views it differently. It would how ever be a civil issue in landlord tenant court. The law I quoted would most likely be clearly upheld in the case of a questionable action that is not extremely clear to the general public. Hence the display of a possible gravity knife to an officer or ADA for them to indicate their opinion as to wheter of not it is a legal knife, would apply and was listed in the civil lawsuit presently underway. There is the one case. I need to sign off now, but If needed we can continue tomorrow....Having spent many work days in court, and now in the private sector, I have heard extremely different views by a room full of lawyers.....
It does say enforcing too....
d) an interpretation of the statute or law relating to the offense,
officially made or issued by a public servant, agency or body legally
charged or empowered with the responsibility or privilege of
administering, enforcing or interpreting such statute or law.
I think the Sheriff does that
d) an interpretation of the statute or law relating to the offense,
officially made or issued by a public servant, agency or body legally
charged or empowered with the responsibility or privilege of
administering, enforcing or interpreting such statute or law.
I think the Sheriff does that
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----empowered with the responsibility or privilege of
administering, enforcing or interpreting such statute or law. ---
Enforcing and administering would apply. Interpreting isn't required as it says "Or" in front of it.
Even if that's true in NYC, NYC law isn't going to be valid in California
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In reading your posts, you seem to have an attitude towards anyone offering the OP an opinion based on their reading of the NYC statutes. Tom1976 didn't give the OP any sort of dangerous or harmful advice, instead he advised the OP to play it safe and not throw knives out in his yard. And yet you seem intent on criticizing him and telling him that he's wrong.
Since you have such a negative view of others offering opinions on the law, and since you claim to be more qualified to interpret statutes, perhaps you would be willing to identify yourself so that people can verify that you are in fact a lawyer. Because as it stands at the moment, you are just some guy on the internet claiming to be a lawyer, and as such your legal opinions are of no greater value than anyone else's.
And if you are a lawyer, and if you think it's so wrong for non-lawyers to give the OP opinions on the law, why don't you give the OP a definitive answer to his question? I see you criticizing Tom for offering the OP his opinions, but I don't see you offering the OP the benefit of all your supposed legal knowledge.
I do agree with you on the following- no one should look to this forum for conclusive legal advice. As I have often suggested, like when I give my opinion on a law, when in doubt about the law, people should consult an attorney.
Of course, attorneys aren't always as smart as they think they are. They aren't always right, sometimes they are sued for malpractice, sometimes their clients get new trials because their lawyers were proven to be incompetent, and sometimes they lose their license to practice law. So I for one do not regard the opinions of a lawyer to be divine gospel.
And regarding your negative opinion of this sub-forum, this sub-forum is not here as an advice forum, it's a discussion forum. On the first page of this sub-forum, right under where it says "Forum: Knife Laws", it says "Your place to discuss the laws that affect us Knife Nuts". It doesn't say "The place to get free legal advice". So anyone who makes decisions based on what they read on this sub-forum has only themselves to blame for any trouble they get into. And anyone who disapproves of people discussing knife laws in this sub-forum is free to not read or participate in this sub-forum.
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Thanks for your thoughtful response Kilgar. I understand the purpose of this subforum is for discussion of the law but the overwhelming majority of threads consist of people wanting advice about the law, i.e. legal advice. Just as yourself, I believe those who have a legal question should consult their attorney. I choose not to provide legal advice via the internet for many reasons. I recently attended a seminar (Social Media: The Impact on Lawyer Ethics, Malpractice & Professionalism) in which we were warned about the problems created for attorneys when providing legal opinions via social media or forums. If one is not a licensed attorney no such problems exist as the person is not a lawyer nor is he or she bound by the rules applicable to lawyers relating to the practice of law. Again thank you for taking the time to post.
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To the OP, it shouldn't matter. Still, contact local LE and ask first but if being careful with your practice I cannot imagine having any problems on your own property. Reenactors toss tomahawks, knives. Lumberjack festivals throw double bit axes. It isn't a prohibited activity and the knives themselves would only be unlawful if possessed with intent to harm another.
Any cop that gives you the wrong info should be responsible for their ignorance. If the cops don't even know the law, how are we supposed to. OP, I'd just buy the knives and enjoy throwing them. Just use common sense and be safe. Screw all of the ridiculous laws that are impossible to follow.
The misconception is that law enforcement officers are to be relied upon to interpret and then advise citizens about the law. That is not what they are employed to do. If you want advice then speak with an attorney. Ultimately the courts will interpret the law based on applying the law to the underlying facts. Attorneys advise clients about the law. Law enforcement officers make arrests based on their law enforcement training. Even if a law enforcement officer makes an arrest the prosecuting or district attorney may choose not to prosecute because the law enforcement officer made a mistake, did not understand the law or the facts will not support a conviction. It happens every day. My main point is don't rely on law enforcement to interpret and advise as that is not what they are charged or trained to do. If law enforcement officers were required to have a law degree and pass the Bar then there would be very few law enforcement officers and those few officers would command a salary greatly in excess of what is currently being paid. In addition there would be the issue of conflict of interest when the same person is responsible for enforcing the law while at the same time advising the person he may arrest as to the interpretation of the law.
There is a big difference between getting arrested for an offense and getting convicted for it, however just getting arrested regardless of the outcome can have serious negative consequences for some people.
While relying on an attorney or the DA to tell you whether something is legal or not or whether you would be likely to be convicted for something or not is good advice, remember that it is the police officers who are the ones on the front lines actually interpreting the law as they understand it and applying it to the people, regardless of whether that interpretation is eventually found to be correct or not.
Asking a police officer a simple: hey, would you arrest me for this? will give you at least one data point on how the law is actually being applied. It doesn't matter how legal throwing knives in your backyard is if the average police officer in your area is likely to taser your first and let the DA sort it out later.
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Exactly^.
With all due respect to members of law enforcement (the good ones anyway), I would never ask an LEO for legal advice, or for an explanation of the law. Ask ten cops for their interpretation of a single statute and you might very well get ten different answers. And some of those answers might defy basic logic (like when cops tell people that it's illegal to carry a knife with a blade longer than the width of their fingers on one hand. Which defies logic because the width of everyone's fingers will be different). I've heard of several instances where LEO's have offered people exactly that "legal advice".
As far as asking an LEO "Would you arrest me for this", every cop is different. Just because one cop says they would not arrest you doesn't mean the next cop you meet, or every other cop in the department, won't arrest you. Some cops are "cool" and don't sweat the small stuff, some are gung-ho and will interpret the law very strictly, some are simply ignorant of the law and will make bad arrests based on that ignorance, and some are a-holes who will look for any reason to give you a hard time.
On any important matter, whether it may be a medical issue, or dry-rot in the foundation of your house, or the brakes in your car acting funny, or avoiding arrest and all the unpleasantness that goes with it, I think it's best to seek out the MOST qualified person possible to advise you and address your concerns. And while lawyers aren't perfect, their knowledge of the law is very likely going to be greater than the average LEO.
Well the OP has not check in since the day he first posted, so I assume all this advice is just for the members who responded.....Since my last response I did a bit of follow since I have numerous NYPD officers that now work as part time security in the malls I run, and I have to go to both criminal court and ECB hearings. First out of 8 officers covering three different ranks in Queens, Brooklyn and two all city special units, all 8 said if they responded to a call of someone throwing a knife in an open back yard, they would feel they HAVE to make an arrest based on today's NYPD guidelines. They said they if came to see this without responded to a call for service 3 would warn the person not to do it and 5 would still arrest him. None felt it was legal and safe to do within NYC.
I also asked one Admin Law Judge, two ADAs and two of our in house lawyers if the section of the NYSPL I quoted concerning an affirmative defense based on direction given by authorized person being correct. I did explain it would be to seek in advance if a particular action or possession of an item was legal as the law was VAGUE about that exact action or item. They ALL agreed that would be the correct understanding of the law. Yes things such as murder or other clearly defined crimes would not hold up well to that affirmative defense, BUT questions like "is this exact knife legal?" or "Can I throw knives in a tree on my property?" would be items that are not clearly defined in the law, and a written opinion would be a defense..... Like everything on this forum this is not legal advice, just what I have found to be the way thing are in the part of the USA that the OP questioned.....Not looking to comment any more on this. Everyone knows better it seems, and I followed up just to feel that there are those who seem to think the written law applies, and that in this part of the USA the NYPD thinks differently then elsewhere....Thanks.
I also asked one Admin Law Judge, two ADAs and two of our in house lawyers if the section of the NYSPL I quoted concerning an affirmative defense based on direction given by authorized person being correct. I did explain it would be to seek in advance if a particular action or possession of an item was legal as the law was VAGUE about that exact action or item. They ALL agreed that would be the correct understanding of the law. Yes things such as murder or other clearly defined crimes would not hold up well to that affirmative defense, BUT questions like "is this exact knife legal?" or "Can I throw knives in a tree on my property?" would be items that are not clearly defined in the law, and a written opinion would be a defense..... Like everything on this forum this is not legal advice, just what I have found to be the way thing are in the part of the USA that the OP questioned.....Not looking to comment any more on this. Everyone knows better it seems, and I followed up just to feel that there are those who seem to think the written law applies, and that in this part of the USA the NYPD thinks differently then elsewhere....Thanks.
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Good to know if the OP had some sort of affirmative response he'd be in the clear.
I find it deeply troubling that so many LE would make the arrest either with or without a complaint when the law is so vague on this issue. Absent some combative reaction from the individual or a history of antagonism with their neighbors, a warning would be a far more appropriate way to go. An arrest being no trivial thing to deal with and the law being so ambiguous.
Sounds like just hanging up a dart board outside could get you arrested...
I find it deeply troubling that so many LE would make the arrest either with or without a complaint when the law is so vague on this issue. Absent some combative reaction from the individual or a history of antagonism with their neighbors, a warning would be a far more appropriate way to go. An arrest being no trivial thing to deal with and the law being so ambiguous.
Sounds like just hanging up a dart board outside could get you arrested...
My point is that lawyers may have knowledge of the law, but the people on the front lines who are going to be enforcing their own interpretations of the law are the patrol officers. If you want to avoid trouble, you need to avoid actions that would result in an officer taking action upon you, not just what would hold up in court.
As the other poster noted, most of the officers he talked to felt that they would take action if called for service regarding this situation. That is the take home point that needs to be taken into account by the OP, unless he feels like defending himself in court and paying some serious legal fees and possibly making sure he has the means to bail himself out of jail instead of rotting there until his eventual court date.
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The only problem with basing one's action or inaction on what a patrol officer thinks, is that we have ceded interpretation of the law to the uniformed police. That is a dangerous precedent and effectively makes a cop the prosecutor, judge and jury which he or she is clearly not. This is similar to not taking a legitimate tax deduction on my tax return based on the opinion of an IRS employee as opposed to my CPA. I deal with law enforcement officers on a daily basis and respect what they do, but at the same time I see too many examples of well-intentioned officers giving bad legal advice, both criminal and civil, to unsuspecting members of the general public who wrongfully assume said officers are competent to provide such advice. Of course, if one wants to be "safe" and possibly forfeit one's civil rights based on the the statements of a random sampling of law enforcement officers then by all means do so.
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Throwing knives are "dangerous weapons" therefore they are illegal to own. In NYC you can be arrested and charged with weapons possession for carrying a freaking Spyderco pocket knife. How do you think the NYPD and the NYC judges see throwing knives?
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No that is definitely not the case. I can't legally own switchblades or balisong knives here in NYC even if I keep them at home and never carry them with me. If it's legally a "weapon" it's illegal to own everywhere. Even at home.